Roger Marble:

I would suggest that the eating of McDonald fries is the result of major munchies from smoking the "evil" weed.

Seriously, decriminalize pot now and give us back the Columbian Gold!

So you should be allowed to sleep with 13 year old boys Jane? How about coma patients? And to Roger: if 1% of marijuana users go on to use heroin, and most of heroin users used marijuana first, then the science or your argument are garbage. The "scientific" conclusion as expressed in your writing (ridiculous fast food analogy aside), is that if no one smoked marijuana, most heroin users would never use heroin? Circular logic at its best. Getting caught dealing or using heroin should equal a large caliber hole in the face. Long hours of community service for pot users. I'm not for legalization obviously, but there is no solid science behind "gateway" drugs. The human condition is just less bearable for some, the rest of us pride ourselves on being drug-free and don't want to justify marijuana use or escapism to our children. As with most things illegal, do it at your own risk.

"pride ourselves on being drug-free"

That's a laugh, with most of the country escaping on legal prescription anti-depressants, anti-psychotics and mood elevators, not to mention the use of the drug called alchohol.

Karen Kilroy:

Thanks for taking the time to write about yard sale prices. And you had to stand in a line? Me, me, me. Didn't your handicap plaque demand clout?
You are one entitled...

It wouldn't kill 90% of Akron to stand at anything.

Stephen Despot:

I'm no financial wizard but I would drop the 401(k)
thingy. It's not working out for you or for anyone else.

@ Roger Marble - Ah, another dope on dope that wants to legitimize his habit.

@Jane Hessin - So, are you related to the guy that did the horse?? I'm sure he feels the same way.

@Sue Else - Your last paragraph says it all. A plea for money.

@Karen Kilroy - So were you mad about standing in line, or the prices you found once you got to see the items.

Frankly, the items and prices were all over the news. I think it was extensive enough that little was left out.

"So you should be allowed to sleep with 13 year old boys Jane? How about coma patients? "

I believe the general view expressed by Ms. Hessin is that sex between two consenting adults should not be something the government needs to regulate. (The consenting adults phrasing eliminates the 13-year-old, the mentally incapable, and livestock.)

In the past, there have been numerous government restrictions, including pervasive 'anti-sodomy' laws which criminalized activities engaged in by most hetero- and homosexual couples as well as laws which forbid sexual relations between members of different races. It is unfortunate that the mindset behind such laws is still pervasive in a large portion of the US population.

"I'm no financial wizard but I would drop the 401(k)
thingy. It's not working out for you or for anyone else"

Though not a financial wizard, my 401k/IRA has averaged a real rate of return of just under 12% per year over the past 20 years - even when adjusted for inflation and annualized to get a true CAGR it's close to 7%. When you throw in the company match and tax-free capital accumulation, it's hard to find a better retirement investment.

My recommendation would be to max out your 401k every year if possible (and that goes for those with access to deferred compensation programs once the 401k hits its annual max).

Karen:

I too was looking forward to attending the sale at Quaker Square to view/purchase articles form history of Quaker Square; the unusually helpful ABJ article the morning of the sale had me change my mind when they listed a few of the items in the sale with prices; $300 for an old dingy moose head.$200 for beyond used, stained couches.... it became apparent that this was another Akron U rip-off.

Sorry you attended to be disappaointed.

Dear Mark Fiander: Always nice to see the Regressives' point-of-view in the letters section.

Same old..same old. When you are digging a hole...their answer is......KEEP ON DIGGING.

Let those free markets loose they say!!!

Deregulate the industry as much as possible ( See our Wall Street Casino Industry ). That seems to be working just fine.

Put the burden of cost and risk on consumers and taxpayers.

And....always....and I mean always....PROTECT business from injured consumers.

The Regressive mantras.....throw in a sprinkle gay bashing....gun toting rights....and God......then throw away the key.

nmaxxs: I was referring to my family. None of us use alcohol or any of the other things you mentioned. Other than the occasional cup of coffee, I consider us happily drug-free. As to you FYI, if that was what was meant, that was what should have been said. Common sense goes a long way when it comes to sex. There's already plenty of natural laws pertaining to promiscuity and such, ie STD's, unwanted pregnancies, emotional problems, etc. As far as consenting adults go, do what you please, keep it to yourself instead of broadcasting your sexuality to all within earshot and i can't imagine any legislation that could be used against you. Find a way to identify yourself in society other than whom or what you choose to sleep with.

Roger Marble,

I agree, but I don't think it's a matter of them not understanding. I think they know it's bull, but when you are sucking at the teet of drug war funding, you tend to toss integrity out the window.

bubblehead,

"'m no financial wizard but I would drop the 401(k)
thingy. It's not working out for you or for anyone else."

That's a completely false statement.

nmaxxs,

"That's a laugh, with most of the country escaping on legal prescription anti-depressants, anti-psychotics and mood elevators, not to mention the use of the drug called alchohol."

This is my obligatory, once-a-month moment where I agree with you. See you in December.

401(k)'s are nothing more than a form of gambling. That said, my investments are nearly back to where they were prior to the crash. Thanks Obama, for saving the stock market. Hope it's not short term.

I’m really getting sick of this “Legalize It” campaign put forward by the evil Hostess conglomerate.

hitnrun74, If you had actually took the time to read the article you would see that it did not mean that most heroin users start with marijuana. It was meant as a gross generalization to prove a point that you cannot use that sort of flawed logic with no statistical proof behind it. In fact most hard drug users, do start with perscription drugs. Perscription drugs mimic the effects of opiates, take morphine for example, or even better oxycontin also known as hillbilly heroin. These legal perscription drugs are horribly addictive both mentally and physically. You should really look into the statistics. I would also dare to say most people who do hard drugs actually started with alcohol and/or tobacco.

It would take over 500,000 lbs of marijuana smoked in one hour to over-dose on THC levels in your body.


And this is for any christians against the legalization of marijuana for religious reasons or not..

Genesis 1:29: And God saith, 'Lo, I have given to you every herb sowing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree sowing seed, to you it is for food

"401(k)'s are nothing more than a form of gambling. "

I would submit that the above is a complete misunderstanding of the entire concepts of investment and capitalism.

[ To put it another way, if you simply invested in an S&P 500 index fund for the past 20 years you would still have a CAGR approaching 6% when adjusted for inflation. ]

iamcob: you missed my point completely and restated more "science". There is no such thing as a gateway drug. Drugs are drugs. Any use of the words "most users" is just simple baiting and generalization. For every user you suspect started with prescription drugs or tobacco, I'm willing to bet we can find one who has never tried tobacco or oxycontin. Point is there is no scientific facts to back up any gateway claims, and anyone that tries to use such claims has already proven they have no facts for their "opinion".

Roger Marble, I agree. I bet most heroin adicts ate chocolate bars too, that makes chocolate bars a gateway drug. I bet most heroin users drank soda pop, that too makes soda pop a gateway drug.

I have smokes marijuana for 40 years this year. I started working when I was 15 which is when I started smoking marijuana. I finished high school and have a college degree, I paid all my child support from first marriage, worked in Information systems for 13 years at a hospital and 7 years for a wholesale in Information systems. Own my own business, own 2 cars and own 2 homes. I have never had a police record. I serve jury duty and I vote every election. I now smoke about 2 joints a day when I was yonger I smoked about 4 joints a day or more.

I have an excellent memory. As a musician, singer and sonwriter I can remember the complete music and lyrics to more than 700 songs.

Americans are being sold a pack of lies inre marijuana. Yes there are people that are foolish and weed or alcohol makes them even more foolish. I would say that alcohol makes them more foolish, mean, destructive and dangerous than marijuana by a very long shot.

Actually it is alcohol that should be illegal and marijuana should be legal to all above the age of 21.

"As far as consenting adults go, do what you please, keep it to yourself instead of broadcasting your sexuality to all within earshot and i can't imagine any legislation that could be used against you."

Again, historically that has not been the case. Until recently individuals have been prosecuted for breaking anti-miscegenation laws and 'sodomy' laws.

My guess is that the writer is also expressing distaste for the idea that the government will only legally recognize her sexual union if it is with a man as opposed to another woman - to that extent, the state has taken upon itself a liberal nanny position that consenting adults do not possess the independent judgment to make decisions on personal relationships, and therefore the state needs to step in and declare some relationships valid and others invalid. It is frankly shocking to me that anyone in agreement with this nanny state mentality would then choose to call themselves a conservative.

@Sheeple:

I'd also read on one of those blog-thingies that the pizza delivery cartel was poised to start a truth-PAC and start standing behind laws that decriminalized pot.

Someone had even thought that Domino's might have been the quiet money behind the new laws in Breckenridge, CO.

The local manager couldn't be reached for comment. He was supposedly in Panama researching a new secret topping.

Or maybe a new "deliverable" product ...

@Sue Else :

Few realize that the dramatic shift to occur on December 21, 2012 will be of sexual dominance. Women will become dominate and men submissive. So just wait a few years and all will change!

"Take a stand against domestic violence"


Are there actually people out there who are FOR domestic violence? How does getting my money make it go away?

@Mars Bonfire; Once again, as on many previous posts, we here about your two cars, two houses, outstanding work performance, and now you can even remember lyrics of 700 songs. Wow!! You are definitely way up there on my list of successful individuals. I just wonder if your children are as proud of dear ol Dad as Dad is. I'm sure mine would be rolling in the streets just after completing their cartwheels. Thank God I was able to give them legal ideals to persevere for. And just for the record, without weed, I've accumulated more items than you. But you got me on the lyrics! If only I had smoked, I could have been an American Idol like you.

Obama was a big pot smoker. Did nothing of note and people voted him President.

So give Mars a break, he's accomplished alot more than Dear Leader.

Hey Big Apples Guy, all he is doing is trying to make a point that you can be successful and still smoke marijuana. You claim to be more successful than Mars Bonfire, that may be true. But you are no where near as successful as Paul McCartney, Joe Walsh, Seth Rogen, Cheech & Chong, Jesus (who had to have smoked seeing as it was a seed bearing herb given to us as a gift from god), Jack Nicholson, Hunter S. Thompson, My god man this list can go on and on and on with people who will forever be infinately more successful than you and smoked marijuana.

Michael Phelps..

LeBron James.. (who happened to have kicked the knick's asses just the other day).

I bet there are more successful people than you could ever fathom that has or still does take part in enjoying the effects of cannibus.

@SpitWad said:"Obama was a big pot smoker"

There is a point where "truthiness" crosses the line to abject defamation of character.

Or is just another lie. That's all The Party can seem to muster lately.

Isn't your guy's king-size Boehner pill fixing it all for you?

Didn't think so. He's allergic to the truth, too. Must be a spray-on-tan side effect ...

@Big Apple Guy:

Here's a cookie ...

Jane Hessin, you sound like a NAMBLAnoid.

@FYI said:"It is frankly shocking to me that anyone in agreement with this nanny state mentality would then choose to call themselves a conservative."

Chuckle ....

FYI:

State sanctioned "marriage" between two women or two men has consequences for society in which the state has a vested interest, including the protection of children. If the state sanctions those marriages, the adoption of children into those families is sure to follow.

As I've mentioned before, in every area of life, cognitive, emotional, social, developmental, at every phase of the life cycle, social evidence shows that there are measurable effects (not positive ones, I might add) when children lack either a mother or a father. If children have any rights at all, one is certainly to have all the benefits of a mother AND father from birth. Same-sex "marriage" ensures that children will be deprived of this most basic and critical environment.

Frankly, I am appalled by anyone who would be willing to use children as lab rats in a grand social experiment that would have predictably harmful affects for their development. It is simply fact that 2 Moms or 2 Dads is not equivalent to 1 Mom and 1 Dad. I'm not willing to conduct the experiments on children to prove what should already be obvious.

I'm sorry if my position shocks you or if you think this means I support a nanny state. Nothing could be further from the truth.

@300 snickered and drooled:"Jane Hessin, you sound like a NAMBLAnoid."

Ah, another The Party Good Denizen checks in from 1951.

Foil Fedoras are on aisle 5, right below the 100 oz. size bottles of ignorance.

But you won't need any of that ...

FYI:

We do agree on the 401k issue. Is there a better way to save for retirement? I'm not aware of one.

@Bud's Weasel:

So, The Good Party's answer is their favorite "family values" pitch.

As half of them get a divorce, at least once. Except for their presidential hopefuls, which must have at least two to qualify.

And the elected ones don't have the nerve to get the divorce before they start other relationships.

So why is two monogamous dads or moms worse than 4 or 6 parents and Jose the pool boy?

Isn't it about being loved?

What holier-than-thou truthiness spew.

Big Apples Guy,

Wow!

Bud Wiser - Get a clue. Gays and lesbians already have the right to adopt and are doing so. They don't need to get married in order to do so and neither do straight people who are single for that matter.

So, your battle is not against gays adopting. It's against single people who adopt.

And, I'm not shocked by your ignorance at all.

iamcob,

Don't forget at least the last three Presidents. I don't care what they admitted, you know they did it (and inhaled.... and liked it).

@Bud Weaseled:"Frankly, I am appalled ..."

Yeah - at all the wrong stuff.

You The Party-types spend most of your time trying to legislate a morality you can't even begin to live up to.

Then you get all angsted up about your kids future, which you sold to The Corporation years ago when your parents got too senile to vote and offset your idiocy.

What intellectual drool.

Bud,

I have to disagree on the children issue. I think one parent, or two parents of the same sex, is better than an unstable foster environment. When all of the kids in America are in the same homes for many, consecutive years, then I think we can parse the issue of the ideal home environment.

It's 330, dolt.

I didn't snicker or drool... oh that's right, you just recycle your little quips. Trite. I'm sure you have a list you go through, since I see you using that same ones over and over.

Let it be known that nottheusual1 supports pedophilia and NAMBLA. The proof's right there.

Speaking of ignorance, you don't have a clue about my political ideology, but claim to. Just goes to show how preconditioned and naive you are. You just sit here all day long, looking for someone to attack and fight with. Such a bitter, unhappy life =( No need to be jealous and snipe at me, just because I'm happy.

Hurry up and get to that list, and regurgitate another stale insult.

Bud Wiser provides insight into his bigoted christian values and intoleration and certainly impresses them upon his children. Way to go Dad.

Bud Wiser, you are telling me that you think a child would be better off with a Mom and a Dad who don't care about them or want them than with two dad's or two mom's that would do anything to have and care for this child. You don't even know what you are talking about. People can grow up just fine with same sex parents, though they may be a little more open minded and free thinking. How can you say what you don't know. Tell me, is a kid better off raised with a single parent than two parents of the same sex? A gay family will never negatively effect you or your family and if you are afraid of that then that is just sad and you must have some underlying feelings that you fear coming to the surface.

And I haven't even hit 30 yet, something you probably did long before 1951. It's established that you're bitter, naive, jealous and unhappy. Are you old too? =)

It's getting tense here.

FYI Colombia -" (The consenting adults phrasing eliminates the 13-year-old, the mentally incapable, and livestock.)

i know what you are saying and agree but that justs sounds funny - not the 13 year olds or mentally incapable - but anyone not having read teh horse story is probably wondering WTF is up with the livestock.

Wow, who would have thought that society would devolve to the point where a mother and father is deemed just one of many equivalent arrangements for raising children.

@300 retorted:"Hurry up and get to that list, and regurgitate another stale insult."

No need to. You are doing a great job exposing yourself as a hater and homophobic troll.

You need a cookie, too?

Someday when I grow up I want to be just like FYI, Columbia, MD....a voice of reason & intellect !

Why doesn't Ohio. Com have the article posted on the cost of incarceration vs treatment ?

@300 posited:"It's established that you're bitter, naive, jealous and unhappy."

What a hoot!!

Is it cold down in the basement today?

ToJ:

"I have to disagree on the children issue. I think one parent, or two parents of the same sex, is better than an unstable foster environment."

So the bar you've set is getting over "an unstable foster environment"? Aim a little higher. The kids are worth it.

@Bud Wealed proferred:"Wow, who would have thought that society would devolve to the point where a mother and father is deemed just one of many equivalent arrangements for raising children."

Yeah - funny how people evolve. Maybe it's more important that a child be loved than trying to live up to the broken "family values" lie.

You guys shouldn't have broke it, to begin with ...

Bud,

To me, the bar of reality trumps the bar of idealism every day. I'll take incremental quality of life improvements over nothing every day.

What a hoot... is that a term from 1951? You ARE old!! Haha!! Still, this doesn't explain (completely) why you are so bitter and full of hate. Hmmm.

@300:

In all your hypocrisy, you seem to have forgot that you equated a woman's right to claim her own sexuality to pedophilia.

But that is expected, since this is just about you hating - whether it's me or your preferred target, those that can't defend themselves.

Snooze ....

The irony in NTU1 taking offense with the NAMBLA joke is that is the most cliched, Jon Stewart-wannabe line used by many (not NTU1) Liberals. I find this pretty humorous.

Name on thing I was hypocritical about. I didn't equate a woman's right to pedophilia. Jane said that congress can't make no laws regarding her sexual practices. I was pointing out that this is wrong, if it harms someone else. And, that it's the same argument NAMBLA people use. AND, it's NOTHING to do with gender or a "woman's right..." Figures, you're all hung up on gender. My points were made and are valid regardless of gender.

Two lies: that I'm a hypocrite and said anything about women's rights. It didn't take long for you to begin making things up, out of thin air, after you attacked me - defending your beloved NAMBLA.

The only ones I'm hating on are those who "can't defend themselves"... child victims of rape.

*who harm those who "can't defend themselves"... child victims of rape.

@300:

Oh, yeah - deflection always works, huh. Poor misunderstood you.

Next ...

@T_O_J:

Wow - me, too, now.

Funny you'd mention it. Jon did that to some The Party group last week. I didn't think it was funny then, either.

Some things are just a shade beyond the pale.

Accusing others of deflection always works for you, when proven wrong? I didn't deflect or stray from my original statement. You were the one making up lies -- which is even more preposterous since everything's right here to read.

Cookie/Snooze/Next...

Karen Kilroy - Get a life honey! Quaker Square didn't go. It's alive and doing very well for a change now that The Univerisity of Akron saved it from a struggling history and bleak future.

Also, it's obvious you haven't been to many tag sales. Waiting in line is part of the deal. If you don't like what you see, move on. Writing a letter about such a common experience is pretty lame. Publishing it, is even more lame.

From what I understand, UA cleaned house on the event so there were oviously enough people to disagree with you and make your concerns insignificant. As a tax payer, I'm happy that our public univeristy made some money on the sale. Go Zips!!! You're darned if you do and you're darned if you don't.

SEIU (Obama Ally) Beats Black Man

It has been more than three months since Kenneth Gladney was viciously attacked by SEIU employees. The assault wasn’t an accident, but a deliberate attempt to intimidate and silence tea party activists and town hall protesters. The morning of the Gladney assault, the White House presented to Senate Democrats a ‘battle plan’ to quell the protests. The White House advised Democrats “punch back twice as hard.” Gladney was the first casualty.

The Gladney beating took place at a forum on ‘Aging’, sponsored by Rep. Russ Carnahan. Carnahan had been caught flat-footed by earlier protests. This time he was more prepared; the day before the forum, Sara Howard took over as his communications director. Ms. Howard is a veteran leftist activist, holding senior positions with SEIU.

Obama met over 20 times with the head of the SEIU. Who do you think really unleashed the thugs?

Stephen Despot, Instead of whining about lay offs and losing money you should try and stay out of court and work a job. If you worked for me and were taking off all this time for court I would lay you off also. My God when I plugged your name into the courts site it took for ever for your record to come up it was so extensive.

@ Sheeple,

Your avatar came out of the closet last night, literally, as not evil but misunderstood

"Among the likeliest effects of gay marriage is to take us down a slippery slope to legalize polygamy and polyamory (group marriage)," writes Stanley Kurtz, Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institute. "Marriage will be transformed into a variety of relationship contracts, linking two, three or more individuals ... in every conceivable combination of male and female."

Legalized group marriage is already well underway. There has been a rash of lawsuits filed by polygamists, and same-sex couples are already suing for the right to include in their marriage a third party who was used as either sperm donor or surrogate mother to produce a child.

You asked for it. Tinker with marriage and the family...watch society crumble from within.

G.H.R.,

Although my comments are never serious or to the point I have always prided myself in having the coolest monkey here. Sorry that was a direct shot at Minna Wade’s Monkey and completely uncalled for.

Also, we have known for years that he wasn’t always evil.

Bud Wiser, where do you get your information? How on earth can you relate gay marriage to polygamy? What fuels your ignorance. Society will not crumble with the passing of gay marriage, how will it effect you and your family in any way what so ever? Why should you get any say in what other people do with their own lives. What are you so afraid of that you have to resort to claiming gay marriage will lead to polygamy? What's next, you are going to claim that it will lead to man marrying animals? Let's see how much you can twist and contort the truth. What are you so afraid of?

Society is crumbling due to several issues including "marriage" how about economy and the fact that both people in the relationship have to work and who is watching these children: its apparent NOBODY - my Jimmy wouldn't set fires, throw rocks, drink illegally, do drugs; rob; steal, and kill!!!

50% of the children today are raising themselves or each other and I don't believe it has a darn thing to do with two parents vs 1 parent; or gay vs straight!

It appears the 5 minute time-out theory as punishment for kids isn't working!!!

@ 330:

There is no way Jane can be in favor of NAMBLA. I think she is a woman.

Did you know that NAMBLA was started by a Boston Catholic priest? Has it occured to anyone that the North American Diocese is broke because of the churches indirect support of NAMBLA?

Responsible and respected gay people abhor NAMBLA and it is not be used as an interchangeable synonym.

Well Ive finally figured it out..phew....Nottheusual1 is just lonely..Heres a hug(((((Nottheusual1))))) :-)

Bud Wiser - you hit the nail on the head. Plus people will want to marry animals as well. Marriage needs to be defended and it is great to see it defended when people get to vote.

@Bud Wiser said:"You asked for it. Tinker with marriage and the family...watch society crumble from within."

Yeah - all those uber-selfish Boomers again.

Don't they know that if Gawd wanted them to have children, He would have provided?

And the polygamy thing is a timely warning. Just imagine what it'd be like for Rudy Gee or Fred Tee to have to explain 1 marriage and 3 ex-wives.

I believe everything Christopher Hitchens has something to do with, especially:

"The conservative aptitude for stressing the "individual responsibility" of all parties except themselves."

He's my kind of guy ...

Spirit of Reagan and Bud Wiser, how on earth do you connect the desire to marry animals to gay marriage??? The sanctity of marriage has been ruined by straight couples and divorce. Are you really that ignorant as to cast the blame on a group of people who have nothing to do with the currently failing system that is straight marriage??? You have got to be kidding me when you blame your problems on other people. The sanctity has been long gone with your cheating on your spouses and divorce and yet you have the audacity to blame gays on ruining the sanctity of marriage! What world do you live in? You make me sick.

@SpitWad supported with:"Marriage needs to be defended and it is great to see it defended when people get to vote."

I say we ban divorce, completely, or make marriage a one-shot deal unless your spouse passes on.

That would fix all of our "family value" problems.

Spirit of reagan - This is what happens when we slid down the slippery slope of allowing blacks to marry whites right? Also, I think we should have the right to vote on whether Italians can marry Germans and that Mexicans can't work in any other field but housekeeping and janitorial services.

Hey, if we vote on it, anything is OK right?

Thanks, peebs - here's one back at you!

@bubblehead:

Shhhhhh....

Don't let facts get in the way of a good hate-a-thon and some generic ad hominem nastiness ...

I can't wait until my generation gets control of the politics in this country and the old f*cks in control now die off.

Polygamy?

The world could not have been populated without incest and polygamy, according to this thing they call a bible. In fact, the first incestuous biblical person was named Cledus. Gomer was his son. Some things never change.

yw..
If we are only allowed to marry once unless a spouse dies,im guessing there will be more murders in the world.

@iamcobb,
I hope you live long enough to see it.

Actually I find it hard to believe anything that Bubblehead writes.Ever since she told us she went to an Akron hospital with gas and came out with a newborn.

P.S.
I still dont believe,not for a second,that you didnt know you were preggers.

@peebs02:

lmao

peebs02:

Has it ever occured to you that women were never allowed on a submarine? The joke's on you, sweet-ums.

I could have never given birth, they told me my hips were too small.

Jason - There is nothing wrong with blacks marrying whites and vice versa.

"If the state sanctions those marriages, the adoption of children into those families is sure to follow."

As others have noted, adoption by gay families is already occurring - over 100,000 children have either been adopted by gay families or placed in the foster care of gay families.

"As I've mentioned before, in every area of life, cognitive, emotional, social, developmental, at every phase of the life cycle, social evidence shows that there are measurable effects (not positive ones, I might add) when children lack either a mother or a father."

Can you provide some links to this? I've seen info on the importance of two parents vice one - but I am not aware of studies suggesting two gay parents are less capable of providing for the full well-being of a child than two non-gay parents.

"I'm sorry if my position shocks you"

As I've indicated, I don't find it shocking. I do find it irrational and bigoted. Absent reliance on the teaching of some specific mythos system, I can see no justification for it.

@bubblehead:

I still can't get an answer on this simple Bible Math 101 question:

Where did Adam Eve's 50-some-odd daughters/sons-in-law come from?

We know it wasn't a dating site ...

Hey CORN on the COB,

I didn't blame gays for anything. You must be confusing the content of my post.

The bible also states that if a man dies and that man has a family, it is the responsibility of the dead man's brother to marry the widowed wife.

You are right, peebs02, there would be nothing but murders and a whole lot of homosexual men running around all horned up.

"Wow, who would have thought that society would devolve to the point where a mother and father is deemed just one of many equivalent arrangements for raising children."

Who would have thought society would evolve to the point where my little white children can play with my neighbor's little black children as brothers and sisters?

Looking at the celebrations in Europe this week, it is useful to remember that we have the potential to break free from the chains of oppression and injustice that we ourselves have created.

Look, I know the book of Genesis is a farce but you don't start reading a book in the middle, do you?

I can't get past the first chapter yet they want me to believe.

Ok.glad to see ive got some of you to lighten up,which is great,now the others need to follow suit.:-)

I wish the ABJ would put up the story about Scott Roeder,the man accused of shooing a Kansas abortion doctor.He just confessed to the killing in an interview.

"There is nothing wrong with blacks marrying whites and vice versa."

It was illegal in many states when my parents were born.

Consider the following quote from the trial judge in Loving v. Virginia (1967) which finally overturned miscegenation laws:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

Listening to the rhetoric associated with gay marriage, it is difficult not to hear similar echos of intolerance.

FYI:

The chains of oppression are still wrapped around anyone who isn't a caucasoid. Our inner cities are paying the price for years of trying to keep people out of our lives, our government, our schools, and peebs02's church. These kids turn to crime because they know nothing and that's because their mother or father knew nothing and their mother and father knew nothing. We have generations of people who know nothng and they only thing they know now is how to survive.

peebs - it is up now!

@bubblehead:

They lost me at "let there be light".

Everything seems to be mystical excuses for things that they couldn't understand ...

@Deidre,
lol your right~

@Bubblehead,
Just an fyi,,I dont go to church..so your wrong again.

@Deidre,
Got ya now,I thought you meant about the people lightening up.Thank you tho ,for the info :-)

@FYI stated:"Listening to the rhetoric associated with gay marriage, it is difficult not to hear similar echos of intolerance."

Sounds like an ocean liner whistle in the left ear from here.

I married a "non-white" woman is 1981. All the country still wasn't right with it. And it wasn't always just mind-spew.

Had to exorcise a few demons from some rather pointy-headed whisperers. Funny how when it gets put in the correct perspective, they'll even apologize for their shortsightedness.

Well, after a couple of knuckle burgers in some cses ...

p.s. my hips were to small also,Dr.told me I had the hips to be a model,not have babies,not something you want to hear when your waist has doubled in size!! BUTTTTTT I ended up having a c-section....

"The chains of oppression are still wrapped around anyone who isn't a caucasoid."

I disagree.

Take a look at the school profile for the elementary school my youngest child attends - look at the demographics and look at the testing results. Opportunity exists across racial boundaries.

http://www.hcpss.org/schools/profiles/profile_es_Swansfield.pdf

This friend of my hubbies,who served with him in the Air Force, was married to a Japanese girl,,well in Alabama they didnt recognize his marriage and the air force shipped him out.This was in the late 60's early 70's.

bubblehead,

"The chains of oppression are still wrapped around anyone who isn't a caucasoid. Our inner cities are paying the price for years of trying to keep people out of our lives, our government, our schools, and peebs02's church."

Don't go there. That's a sore subject with me. The inner city wreckage has less to do with oppression as it does with apathy and placating, feel-good policies (table scraps). People from the inner city, by and large, want jobs and opportunities, not patronizing rhetoric and $0.50 increases in the minimum wage.

Do you base the above statements on any personal experience, because quite honestly it's really offensive if it's not.

@Spittoon:

"And yet 20 years later, Reagan's role in bringing about the fall of the Berlin Wall and the peaceful end of the Cold War remains exaggerated, manipulated and misunderstood. To many of his conservative admirers, the challenge to Gorbachev in Berlin epitomized the toughness that made Reagan great: by refusing to compromise his core principles, he defeated communism and won the Cold War. But the truth is that Reagan was more adaptable, politically shrewd and open to compromise than either his champions or his critics prefer to admit. He may have called the Soviet Union an "evil empire," but he was not above negotiating with it. While others saw the enmity between the superpowers as immutable, he insisted that change was possible. And though today he is revered by foreign policy hawks, Reagan's greatest successes were achieved not through the use of force but by persuasion, dialogue and diplomacy."

@ FYI. So, racially, you're equating a level playing field to the make up of an elementary school classroom? I usually have no problem agreeing with you, but this seams to be a rather over simplification.

Indy / FYI,

I'll put my own spin (maybe it's already implied) on that post in that I think educational success is a function of socioeconomic status, not race. Howard County is a pretty well-to-do area and isn't as stratified as Ohio in terms of incomes by race. That goes back to my point that there is no oppression taking place. The problem is apathy and lack of opportunity from an economic standpoint.

Maybe I saw your oversimplification and raised you an oversimplification, but that's what I believe.

"So, racially, you're equating a level playing field to the make up of an elementary school classroom? "

No - absolutely not.

What I'm suggesting is that a racially diverse school with a high level of academic achievement is indicative of a culture in which race is not the single most important factor defining future success.

There are still many individuals - of all races - who face severe socio-economic hardships. Likewise, it is abundantly clear that these hardships disproportionately affect different minority groups. These facts do not, however, imply that 'chains of oppression are still wrapped around anyone who isn't a caucasoid'.

@TOJ:

So how were they supposed to get good jobs if they were being discriminated against?

Even with a college degree they were still being discriminated against.

Not until that longest journey, the one from the mind to the heart, is completed and racism is almost completely eradicated will there be some semblance of a level playing field.

At least you don't generalize by using the "lazy" term.

There are poor caucasians that have to overcome dismal socioeconomic conditions too, as we both know, but they don't carry the added burden of being non-white.

You continue shoveling your shallow over simplifications with regard to their plight. Yes, too many overly ambitious government programs for too long haven't resulted in a cure all. But they are not solely responsible for this continued, shameful plight.

No, people from the inner city do not only want jobs and opportunities, but they want to know and feel that they are looked upon as worthy equals.

Racism still remains, one need go no further than this site to see it's still alive and well.

"I think educational success is a function of socioeconomic status, not race."

Yes - that is what I was (unsuccessfully) trying to assert.

"Howard County is a pretty well-to-do area and isn't as stratified as Ohio in terms of incomes by race. "

Yes, median household income for African American families in our county is a little above $100K/year - still below white households in the county ($137K/year) - but the correlation between race and income is *much* less pronounced here. While we still have pockets of poverty, they are much more racially heterogeneous.

@bubbles:

I never said Jane was in favor of NAMBLA, instead that she sounded like them.

I never mentioned one thing about religion.

I didn't bring up anything regarding gays, and especially didn't use NAMBLA as an interchangeable synonym for them.

You retorted to me three points, however I never said these three things... why are you behaving as I did? Is there a cognition problem in your brain where the information morphs between the time you read it and then go to type? People keep responding to imaginary, nonexistent posts.

FYI,
"...my 401k/IRA has averaged a real rate of return of just under 12% per year over the past 20 years..."

I nominate FYI for Treasury Sectretary.

"I nominate FYI for Treasury Sectretary."

Anyone who even just invested in the S&P 500 Index for that period would have seen a 10.5% rate of return...

(Ok, so refinancing and locking in a 4.375% 30-year fixed mortgage when rates tanked was pretty sweet... as was keeping $200K stock payment in cash until the market dropped 3000 points and then investing it - but that wasn't retirement money.)

FYI/NTU1,
As Colin Powell noted during his opposition to Clinton's attempt to normalize homosexuality in the military, agruments equating homosexual and racial discrimination are invalid.

One deals with behavior, one doesn't.

FYI:

"Who would have thought society would evolve to the point where my little white children can play with my neighbor's little black children as brothers and sisters?"

Agree. Societal evolution in the right direction. Gay marriage - wrong direction.

"Looking at the celebrations in Europe this week, it is useful to remember that we have the potential to break free from the chains of oppression and injustice that we ourselves have created."

When Europe becomes Eurabia, they will be back in the chains of oppression and they will have no one to blame but themselves. Sharia law, anyone?

Happy Berlin-Wall-Is-Dead Day to All!

Bubble:

"These kids turn to crime because they know nothing and that's because their mother or father knew nothing and their mother and father knew nothing."

Most of these kids come from fatherless families. Fix the crisis of the fatherless families and you will go a long way to fix the problems of perpetual poverty and crime that afflict the inner cities.

"One deals with behavior, one doesn't."

Yes, if the question is discrimination with respect to military service the more accurate comparison is religion. That is, any argument suggesting that it is acceptable to discriminate against gays in the military can be re-written to justify discrimination against Jews (as an example).

TOJ:

"I think one parent, or two parents of the same sex, is better than an unstable foster environment."

If I understand you correctly, you're saying gay parenting is desirable because some foster situations are dysfunctional. Not sure one follows necessarily from the other, but, whatever...

NTU1,

"They lost me at 'let there be light'."

I wonder why? That statement fits in perfectly with modern science. Modern science holds:
1. The Big Bang was an explosion of light & energy.
2. This is how space and time began.
3. We do not know what caused the Big Bang.

FYI,
"That is, any argument suggesting that it is acceptable to discriminate against gays in the military can be re-written to justify discrimination against Jews (as an example)."

1. So do you agree the racial analogy is invalid, or only invalid for the military?
2. What do you believe accords sexual practice the same 1st Amendment protection as religion?

Unusual One:

"And the polygamy thing is a timely warning. Just imagine what it'd be like for Rudy Gee or Fred Tee to have to explain 1 marriage and 3 ex-wives."

I agree. Slick Willy and John Edwards are going to have some explaining to do, also.

Bubble head,

Anyone who believes crime is due to lack of education or poverty should study crime rates in the 1930s.

Those ideas are obviously False.

Crime is tied, as Bud noted, to the breakdown in the family, the institution many of our fellow bloggers are taking shots at today.

"So do you agree the racial analogy is invalid, or only invalid for the military?"

I believe religious discrimination is a better analogy for military service - though there are clearly similarities to racial discrimination.

"What do you believe accords sexual practice the same 1st Amendment protection as religion?"

The 14th Amendment.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It's that last clause - equal protection of the laws. That's the clause (actually its equivalent in the Iowa Constitution) that the Iowa Supreme Court unanimously found to be violated as a result of that state's marriage laws.

Hey, VOICE of REASON, do you run a background check on everyone that writes a letter here? That makes you a borderline stalker if you do.

Looks like the man had valid reasons for going to court, a lot were more than 7 years ago too. Hmm....sounds like you are holding a mans past against him?

Looking into these records, looks like he was found not guilty on a lot of this too. Better look into stuff before posting up info like that, you could get into trouble yourself.

The letter was right on too. Where is our help? Keep the money here for the people that work for it.

Big Apples Guy, Doubtful..Oh, I am on an album in the rock hall of fame as well. Yes, my kids and me get along very well. Actually they are my step children. I raised them and a foster child as well. What have you done for anyone lately?

iamcob says: I can't wait until my generation gets control of the politics in this country and the old f*cks in control now die off.

I remeber saying that 40 years ago and you know what? some of my generation sold out for money and power as yours will. Greed killed their souls

"Crime is tied, as Bud noted, to the breakdown in the family, the institution many of our fellow bloggers are taking shots at today."

There are over 100,000 children in the US today living with gay parents (whether natural, adopted or foster). Do you think removing those children from their families would benefit society?

Lack of education is directly related to crime and poverty. Many trailer park families featured on Nancy Grace are poor and ignorant and almost always will have a baby come up missing. Their statements are just as hilarious as Nancy Grace will ever be.

After gays bully their way into have their "marriage" sanctioned, next it will be three men or two women and a sperm donor wanting equal recognition.

Nothing will change on this forum, though. I'll be saying "I told you so" and Unusual One and FYI will once again hear the echos of intolerance. After all, if one dad is good, three dads must be better. And TOJ will say, in the interest of an incremental quality of life improvement, "Yeah, but some of those foster situations are dysfunctional, so why not...".

330:

You didn't have to say anything. It has already been said.

You assumed Jane was of a certain sexual persuasion. You assumed Jane was sleeping with underaged sexual partners. How you arrived at these conclusions based on Janes letter is baffling.
I had to remind you that NAMBLA was founded by a man of the cloth hiding in plain sight. Makes you sort of angry doesn't it? The corruption of the church and the closing of churches because of hush monies paid out.

"After gays bully their way into have their "marriage" sanctioned, next it will be three men or two women and a sperm donor wanting equal recognition."

Yes, once African Americans were given freedom even the Chinese day laborer and Mexican immigrant wanted their freedom. It is certainly a slippery slope.

The encouraging thing is that something my parents generation struggled with (interracial marriage) doesn't even register with my children (who assume that everyone dates within and outside their own race). When I hear them express shock that people are opposed to allowing their neighbors to get married it certainly gives me hope for the future.

FYI:

"Yes, once African Americans were given freedom even the Chinese day laborer and Mexican immigrant wanted their freedom. It is certainly a slippery slope."

Was that supposed to be an apples-and-apples comparison with the topic at hand? I really don't see the connection. Is there any permutation of marriage that you would oppose? I'm thinking not.

@ Bud. Maybe it's the tone, but bleeding heart sure seems to trump your holier-than-thou mantra. I know you mean well, but it sure sounds mean.

You really need to get off the foster home and three dad kick and look at this from a different angle. Some kids are just better off in a home with two gays than in your "traditional" home. There are plenty of abusive, alcoholic, socially dysfunctional hetero couples (even catholic) out there that have no business raising children. You know this. You've seen this and to say otherwise would be disingenuous beyond the pale, yet you just can't let go of the dogma.

@ bud. check out the first episode of Modern Family on abc.com. You'll find it worthwhile, if for nothing else, the 'two cream puffs" line.

"Is there any permutation of marriage that you would oppose? I'm thinking not."

I believe that two consenting adults should be able to enter into marriage and that marriage should be recognized as valid by the state. I believe the state has valid interests in protecting children (so setting a minimum age) and ensuring adequate competency (so setting restrictions if one of more of the individuals is mentally incapable of providing consent). I see no valid state interest in requiring the union to be between a man and a woman as opposed to two men or two women.

I have no issue with polygamous relationships - but I see no need for state recognition of them.

Relations with animals are prima facie without warrant for state recognition.

FYI,
"14th Amendment - US Constitution"

I do not know if Barack Obama is a constitutional scholar, but I do know that he calls himself one. Even he disagrees with you on this. I am very far from a Const. scholar, but I cannot imagine what "protection" has to do with it.

"Iowa Constitution"
Judicial activism is a well-known phenomenon.
What are the chances this interpretation would have entered the minds of any framer of the Iowa Constitution? Very, very, very, very small?

If so, I conclude it is not really IN the Iowa Constitution; the justices just said it was.

"Do you think removing those children from their families would benefit society?"
I do not think they should be removed, but that's a tendentious question. A fair question is, do I think they should have been placed in those situations in the first place, or should be in the future? The answer is no.

Catholic Charities shut down their 105-year old adoption service in Boston over this issue; they were not granted a religious exemption. That is very sad news for hundreds of children, and for society as a whole.

Indy:

Just because some try and fail, miserably, at the ideal does not mean we throw the ideal out the window. Your argument seems to be that since some make a mockery of what a family should be, we need to change the definition of family.

That's your logic, not mine.

Obama Team to be Keynote to Muslim Terrorist Front

Attorney General Eric Holder has agreed to give a keynote speech next week to a Michigan group which includes the local branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations even though the FBI has formally severed contacts with the controversial Muslim civil rights organization.

On Nov. 19, Holder is scheduled to speak in Detroit to the first annual awards banquet of Advocates and Leaders for Police and Community Trust, a coalition of several dozen law enforcement and community groups. An online registration form for the event includes the Council on American Islamic Relations-Michigan on a list of “official & participating organizations.”

A spokeswoman for ALPACT confirmed that CAIR is a member of the coalition.

“CAIR has been involved for a while,” said Chandra McMillion, community development facilitator for ALPACT. “CAIR is listed as an official member.”

The executive director of CAIR’s Michigan chapter, Dawud Walid, also confirmed its involvement with ALPACT. “It’s really nothing controversial. We’ve been part of this organization for years,” he said. “We meet every month and included with us is the U.S. Attorney’s Office, the FBI.”

The FBI claims it cut “formal contacts” with CAIR after federal prosecutors in the 2007 criminal trial of officers of a Texas-based Islamic charity, the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, introduced documents the government said showed links between CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood, which gave rise to Hamas.

FYI:

"I have no issue with polygamous relationships - but I see no need for state recognition of them."

I learn more about your values every day. Not sure why you would deny polygamists state recognition. Now whose being bigoted?

* who's *

FYI said - "Wow, who would have thought that society would devolve to the point where a mother and father is deemed just one of many equivalent arrangements for raising children."

Who would have thought society would evolve to the point where my little white children can play with my neighbor's little black children as brothers and sisters?

*************************************************

FYI - when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's we played with black kids. We didn't make it out to be some big kind of deal. We played. I played football with them in the 80's. Once again, no big deal.

Sounds like you are making race an issue.

"Judicial activism is a well-known phenomenon."

Again, it was the unanimous view of the Iowa Supreme Court.

"A fair question is, do I think they should have been placed in those situations in the first place, or should be in the future? The answer is no."

Why?

"Not sure why you would deny polygamists state recognition. "

Because I have no problem with the definition of marriage as a contract between two people - and I understand the legal ramifications (e.g., rights of inheritance, medical decision-making) of a contract between two people.

To put it another way - I would have no problem with the legislation proposed here in Maryland that eliminated marriage as a state function and instead made civil unions the only state-recognized relationship. The state could recognize a civil union between two adults (with the caveats I stated earlier) while individual churches could choose to sanctify whichever of these they so chose as marriages.

As I said, I have no problem with polygamous relationships - but I believe the state does have a vested interest in recognizing the union of two adults with all of the commensurate rights associated with such a relationship.

"FYI - when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's we played with black kids."

And in the 1960's, if one of those black kids had married a white woman in Virgina they would be committing a felony offense. I would encourage you to read the history of the Loving v. Virginia case.

"Sounds like you are making race an issue."

My father graduated from South High School in Akron. I have a pretty good idea of when I am and when I am not making 'race an issue'.

FYI:

"As I said, I have no problem with polygamous relationships"

Thank you for confirming my belief that those who support gay marriage can have no legal, moral, or logical argument against polygamy.

Aren't you appalled that polygamy is illegal?

FYI:

"Because I have no problem with the definition of marriage as a contract between two people"

Sounds like a rather arbitrary definition to me. Why just two people? If you limit the definition to two people you are discriminating, are you not? Shouldn't larger groups enjoy the benefits of such a contract?

@ bud. Read into what you will, but family need not be defined by gender.

Bud,

My point is kids living a life of "temporary love" from home-to-home are better off with a stable home with one or two people whom they come to view as parental figures (one woman, one man, two of each, one of each, whatever). I cannot bring myself to tell kids they shouldn't find a home and a sense of belonging per a political/moral view. At the end of the day, you're trying to make a decision for someone that is worse off than you. No child deserves to spend their formative years without a sense of belonging. That is tragic. We all identify ourselves largely from our childhood. If two gay people want to make one person's life better off, then I applaud them for that.

Mars with the right hook!

Indy:

Since the Cleveland Browns have failed miserably at being a professional football team, I think they should let a volleyball team take their place. They couldn't do any worse, could they? They might even be more entertaining.

TOJ:

When I see pictures of the Gay Pride Parades from SF or anywhere else, I immediately think of The Waltons, Little House on the Prairie, and Norman Rockwell all rolled into one fuzzy little ball, don't you?

The only thing that would make it more heart-warming would be to see more little kids in the parade with Daddy and Daddy.

FYI:

One last question...are you passing on your polygamy views to your children or are they already enlightened on that subject, too?

Hey Bud,
Just a little info about something you no doubt have never been to. SF Pride has not only daddy and daddy but they also have children with two mommies and one mom and dad and everything color under the rainbow (pun intended). I can sit and argue with you on so many levels but what would be the point. I can see you are set in your therioes of what IFs and SHOULD BEs. I just have a couple of simple question for you and please take your time to answer.
What are you so scared of?
How does same-sex civil unions affect your life?
Who gives you the right to pass judgement on others and not on yourself and straight marriages? Especially when straight marriages have over a 50% divorce rate.
Also please don't use the bible as an answer to anything, it's been played out and no one is suppose to pass judgement but the creator himself.
All any one wants is to be equal and to love someone. Why are you so against it?

Most abused drug in the USA = Alcohol !
I wonder how many heroin users started with that.

Roger statement is correct from the study. Growing up in the late 60's & early 70's I knew many marijuana users. I never knew any heroin users. One advantage is marijuana is less addicting than alcohol. Most of the people I knew had productive lives & did very well. One that did not do well had many other problems & started out with sniffing glue. You know that cause & effect thing, which is really the issue.

Tycat = Great, make some of the people = THINK instead of hate.

hitreun: if you have never used drugs_ how do you know anything?? iamcob has it right. take it as a "responsible" recreational ocasional drug user. i never and still do not smoke weed but i have used heroin and left it as i am responsible and rather have a more accesible, legal drug: alcohol. i am always amazed when people who have never used have so much knowledge. also ... if you knew how many of your co-workers do some kind of legal drug or illegal drug you would realize you are a minority.
and 401k's i had a good amount invested from 20 years of matched funds but i have nothing now and i am in that "old age group", 58. i have been told i will never recover what i lost because of that factor by my financial advisor.

I NEVER HEARD OF A BUNCH OF GUYS SMOKING POT AND ROBBING ANYONE!

Uh, Bud. With twelve kids, chances are you're the proud daddy of at least one gay/lesbian offspring.

bubbles,

I never assumed Jane's sexual persuasion or that she was sleeping with under aged partners. lol It's unbelievable how you just make things up. I was correct about your mental issues. To you, things happen that don't occur in reality. I hope you don't drive. Then again, you go on about the church. YOU ARE THE ONE ASSUMING. It's baffling how people like you are so easily baited into making up lies and fools of yourself. Some may say that I shouldn't toy with people so intellectually inferior, but when they're such a blatant liar, I feel the need to expose you :o)