Ernest W. Liska: "He (Bush) believed in protecting people from terrorists, which he did."

No, actually, he did not. Even after specific warnings of potential attacks from Al Quaida and Bin Laden, he did not. The attacks on September 11, 2001 could've been prevented. Bush was more interested in fishing than taking those warnings seriously. Bush will own that forever.

RE: Pat Fox

Another brainwashed tea-ba&&er.

@ Ernest W. Liska - Bush and Co has been on trial by the liberal extremeists since he was first elected. Only a liberal loser would continue to criminalize him during this trial.

Even our over zealous democrats in Washington, aren't stupid enough to allow these criminals to go free.

@ Pat Fox - I'm sorry Pat, your wrong. Nothing would ever make Carter look good.

If Mr. Liska is correct in the assessment of the 9/11 attacks being an "act of war", then the people incarcerated for it would thus be "prisoners of war", and subject to the Geneva Conventions ...

Of course, when someone spoke out in the 70s about the idea that our soldiers may have been engaging in torture and similar things, the Republicans attacked him for his claims ... which seem now to be what the Republicans delight in ...

But then, if you think about it, McCain wasn't tortured (according to the Republican definitions) ... he didn't suffer "organ failure" ...

@S. David Worhatch - More importantly, it has been shown before the civil service commission, that the city indeed misrepsresnted their finances. The City didn't produce a single shred of evidence to the contrary. Unless of course one counts Miller-Dawson' stomping her feet and shaking her finger

I'm sorry David, but the ABJ editorial board isn't interested in what's right or wrong. Their association with city hall has driven them from reporting facts, to reporting their politics instead.

Sad, I agree, but it's been this way for many years now, and doesn't look to change anywhere in the near future.

@ Pingfu Feng - "... it was with the understanding ..."

Sort of like a handshake and a kiss. Both are nice, but are meaningless beyond the initial gratification of them being issued.

You could always band together with thos people from Stow. You know what they say. Miserable people love company.

Ernest W. Liska,

Really?

The Nazis got a trial.

Saddam got a trial.

Now all of a sudden we're unable to do the same for the perpetrators of 9/11?

Oh and one more thing...according to your hero Bush, those prisoners wouldn't be subject to military trials since they're not technically prisoners of war. Bush made sure to be very clear on that so he could excuse us from having to uphold the Geneva Conventions.

@Anti-Choice Bob Crawford, abortion is as simple as a woman's right. A woman can have an abortion WHENEVER she wants. Get it?

Dear Kook Liska:

So we are already re-writing history.

Nice.

I think Pat Fax of Kent is looking for a "tea bagger" partner.

Enjoy.

"Especially" the health care companies?

Sounds like someone works for Summa.

@Ernest W. Liska - Whether Bush and Co. protected us from terrorists or not, I do know one thing and that is my job/career was never safe under Bush and Co.

S. David Worhatch,

It seems to me that what is really going on is that you find the facts of the case troubling to your desired outcome. If the CSC weighs FACTS when making a decision, how is the ABJ editorial going to sway that decision?

These guys had a choice to save all or to save some. They chose to save some. No amount of public posturing can cover up the knife wounds in the backs of 38 young firefighters.

ProChoiceLiberal,

If only it were that simple, but thanks for the callous disregard for the complexity anyhow.

I'm so glad that Obama and Eric Holder haven't got caught up in the "us vs them" fervor that they're almost taking sides with Mohammed plus four and using them as a proxy in the rhetorical war vs. Bush/Cheney. How sad that some are.

Is The Pope still out at his local Wal-Mart after waiting in line last night? I would figure these letters would almost make his head explode.

Pingfu Feng - if you want to control how your neighbor uses his property, buy it from him. If you weren't smart enough to buy the mineral rights to yours, that's your mistake.

Everyone has to take a look at this,this is Mr.Rogers ,from Michigan and his thoughts on Obamas health care plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc

@Pingfu Feng
Broadview Heights,

I'm just really curious as to where you lived before here?

@Pat Fox,
Im with ya on that .Great letter.Glad they printed it .

Bob Crawford - you are comparing apples to oranges. "Pulling the plug" means letting someone die through natural means. It involves the witholding of extrordinary means of supporting life. It does not involve the introduction of something in order to end that life.

Even as a pro-choice advocate, I see the major flaw in your attempt at comparison.

@Jason12,
I also see his major flaw in his attempt at any kind of a comparison.Plus,Im wondering why he even bothered sending this into the ABJ.Just to stir the pot?

"A woman can have an abortion WHENEVER she wants. Get it?"

Ahh, no she can't Ms. finatic wannabe! Check out the laws regarding abortion. They aren't opinions. They are facts and, you need to know the difference.

@ Pat Fox: "I would trust any corporation over the government any day" - ANY corporation? ...Enron, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., etc.? Ask the folks who trusted these corporations how that worked out for 'em. Then ask your grandparents/parents whether their Social Security checks ever suddenly and permanently vanished into thin air. Ditto FDIC-insured deposits.

Would you prove the sincerity of your sweeping generalization by agreeing to invest every penny of your retirement and other savings in the corporation I'm setting up: Brooklyn Bridge Investments, to be headquartered in the Cayman Islands? Trust me, I'm a corporation!

Even right-wing Good Ole Party leaders sometimes trust "the gummint" over corporations - for recent evidence, see
http://chambliss.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=bd12d1c3-3045-4716-b0cf-a11d8b3291c6

Blind trust and blind mistrust are the same: extremely sightless. You'll be better served by combining rational skepticism with recognition of reality (even when this clashes with your preconceived ideology, whatever "side" that happens to be).

Ernest W. Liska, nobody hates Bush, they just totally dislike the way he went about doing just about all that he did.

They disliked on hand acting the war president and spreading propaganda while the other hand was aiding and abetting in the thieving of tax payer money for George W's and Dick Checney's corporate friends.

We didn't like Katrina or the way that was handled. I can tell you that for a fact.

People may be stupid, but we are not that stupid to like the way Bush and Cheney and the republican party messed everything up as it is today. You are dreaming if you are thinking that bubba.

We will never forget that...Ever!

Pat Fox, thats like the pot calling the Kettle black. Your republican party showed its incompetance for 8 years and is still showiung it. Its a party with no plan and very little intelligence. Its a dying party and rightly so.
Well you had your 8 years, shut up and sit down.

@Mr. Pergins, you're goofy. Every toke causes irregularities to your cardiovascular function. You're active and fit? Good for you. You smoke? Then you're fooling yourself if you think you're healthy. Quit casting stones.

Exq. Bored ... sounds like a prime opportunity to part some sucker (Pat Fox) from his money ...

It is well known that the editoral people are anti union and has in the past and will not change there undying loyalty to the mayor.Facts do not mean anything to them.It seems to me that they do not care about the citizens of our city.The fire union had facts and the city had cooked books.

@Jason12,
It amazes me how many men feel like they can tell women what they should or shouldnt do with THIER bodies.

Their not thier

david reymann (lifelong UAW man),

Thanks for "shooting" from the hip on this issue, but the ABJ editorial board has no agenda except to echo the public sentiment and/or state what they feel is right. In the case of this appeal and the recall, they were aligned, but just contrary to your feelings on the matters.

[Reymann]........respectfully, as I believe my father knew you for many years.

@Honda- In the case of oil and gas wells, it doesn’t even matter that you own your own land, and your own mineral rights, as the State of Ohio turned control of them over to the oil and gas producers.

They allow private industry, with the help of the ODNR, to take those rights from you.

Citizens have the right to expect that local zoning laws apply to all. Again, in the case of oil and gas wells, that is not the case.

Most people reasonably expect that if zoning is to be changed significantly around their property that there would be public input before those changes are made, especially given that those changes will adversely affect property values.

Look at the development of a neighbors’ property in these terms: If your neighbors would like to make revenue from their property by changing it from residential to commercial, there is a local process that would monitor those changes. If your closest neighbor wanted to open a business, say car repair, at their residential location would you then see this issue in a different light?

If a person wants to develop land in a commercial way, THEY should be the ones to purchase in a part of the city where it is zoned for that use.

My original post hasn't posted, so this may be a duplicate. Sorry

@Honda- In the case of oil and gas wells, it doesn’t even matter that you own your own land, and your own mineral rights, as the State of Ohio turned control of them over to the oil and gas producers. They allow private industry, with the help of the ODNR, to take those rights from you.

Citizens have the right to expect that local zoning laws apply to all. Again, in the case of oil and gas wells, that is not the case.

Most people reasonably expect that if zoning is to be changed significantly around their property that there would be public input before those changes are made, especially given that those changes will adversely affect property values.

Look at the development of a neighbors’ property in these terms: If your neighbors would like to make revenue from their property by changing it from residential to commercial, there is a local process that would monitor those changes. If your closest neighbor wanted to open a business, say car repair, at their residential location would you then see this issue in a different light?

If a person wants to develop land in a commercial way, THEY should be the one to purchase in a part of the city where it is zoned for that use.

MDW, "Oh and one more thing...according to your hero Bush, those prisoners wouldn't be subject to military trials since they're not technically prisoners of war. Bush made sure to be very clear on that so he could excuse us from having to uphold the Geneva Conventions"
They were not uniformed enemy solders. They were dressed in civillian cloths. They don't get Geneva Rights As soon as we were done getting all the intelligence from them, they could have and probobly should have been taken out and shot. Saddam and the Nazis got military trials.

Sorry about the spelling.

@TOJ:

I don't do Walmart.

And, sometimes, just not responding, especially in my case, speaks volumes.

See how you reacted to my reticence?

Or maybe I'm still too bloated and complacent from yesterday.

Bengals are minus 14, and angry. Browns offense is feeling a false sense of security. The team itself has got to be completely deflated.

I'm looking for this one to be one of those ugly ones.

Your take?

nmaxxs:

"No, actually, he did not. Even after specific warnings of potential attacks from Al Quaida and Bin Laden, he did not. The attacks on September 11, 2001 could've been prevented."

Nice rewrite of history. Didn't we have bin Laden in the crosshairs when another gentleman was president?

Do you think the poor communication between intelligence agencies hampered action? (Thank you. Jamie Gorelick)

Do you think for a moment that Clinton or Obama, given the same intel available to Bush, would have prevented 9/11? Dream on...

ProChoice Liberal (redundant...)

"@Anti-Choice Bob Crawford, abortion is as simple as a woman's right. A woman can have an abortion WHENEVER she wants. Get it?"

A woman can kill an unborn child whenever she wants. I don't like the sound of that...

ed sed Stalinesque:

"As soon as we were done getting all the intelligence from them, they could have and probobly should have been taken out and shot. Saddam and the Nazis got military trials."

You sound like Stalin, ed:

"In late 1943, during the Tripartite Dinner Meeting at the Tehran Conference, the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, proposed executing 50,000–100,000 German staff officers. US President Franklin D. Roosevelt, joked that perhaps 49,000 would do. Churchill denounced the idea of "the cold blooded execution of soldiers who fought for their country." However, he also stated that war criminals must pay for their crimes and that in accordance with the Moscow Document which he himself had written, they should be tried at the places where the crimes were committed."

If we listen to extreme right-wing religious wing nuts like yourself, ed, we stir up that hornets nest to the 10th power like never before.

The Nuremberg Trials/Tribunals demonstrated to the world and the german people a civility in doling out justice. We practiced what we preached.

Once we begin compromising our values/system and stooping to their barbaric levels of inhumanity we become just like them.

They want to bring us down to their level. It provides them great propaganda with which to use against us. Just like Abu-Graib did.

@Kook Wiser:

"Do you think for a moment that Clinton or Obama, given the same intel available to Bush, would have prevented 9/11? Dream on..."

But you were one of the holier than thou ones pushing to impeach Clinton while denouncing him at the same time for trying to kill Bin-Laden via a missle attack, claiming it was a smoke screen to the impeachment hearings.

I guess we'll really never know if Clinton's White House would have thwarted it or not, will we?

But we do know for sure that after being advised by Clinton during the transition that Al-Queda would be his biggest concern, Bush chose to ignore and instead take more vacation time during his first nine months than any predecessor.

The FBI knew Arabs were learning to fly only and not how to take off or land. Bush's Daily Presidential Briefs contained warnings that Al-Queda was determined to strike by air.

So while Junior was treating his first year in office as if he were playing with Daddy up in Kennebunkport, we get attacked.

You saw the look on his face when he was reading 'My Pet Goat'. That alone exposed his shame, he was right at home in that elementary class.

@Kook Wiser:

"A woman can kill an unborn child whenever she wants. I don't like the sound of that..."

A blob is not a child. Just because your "faith" dictates that edict doesn't make it so. Why can't you religious fanatics just mind your own business?

Because you've still got some cleaning up to do in your own sanctimonious house:

"DUBLIN – Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church in Dublin covered up decades of child abuse by priests in order to protect the church's reputation, an expert commission reported Thursday after a three-year investigation.
Abuse victims welcomed the commission's report on the Dublin Archdiocese's mishandling of child abuse cases — one of several government investigations into chronic child rape, beatings and other cruelty in Catholic-run schools, children's workhouses and orphanages in 1975-2004.
The government said the investigation "shows clearly that a systemic, calculated perversion of power and trust was visited on helpless and innocent children in the archdiocese."
"The perpetrators must continue to be brought to justice, and the people of Ireland must know that this can never happen again," the government said, also apologizing for the state's failure to hold church authorities accountable to the law."

THE SAGA CONTINUES.......

"It was a slow day
And the sun was beating
On the soldiers by the side of the road
There was a bright light
A shattering of shop windows
The bomb in the baby carriage
Was wired to the radio
These are the days of miracle and wonder
This is the long distance call
The way the camera follows us in slo-mo
The way we look to us all
The way we look to a distant constellation
That's dying in a corner of the sky
These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry baby, don't cry
Don't cry

It was a dry wind
And it swept across the desert
And it curled into the circle of birth
And the dead sand
Falling on the children
The mothers and the fathers
And the automatic earth
These are the days of miracle and wonder
This is the long distance call
The way the camera follows us in slo-mo
The way we look to us all
The way we look to a distant constellation
That's dying in a corner of the sky
These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry baby, don't cry
Don't cry

It's a turn-around jump shot
It's everybody jump start
It's every generation throws a hero up the pop charts
Medicine is magical and magical is art
The boy in the bubble
And the baby with the baboon heart

And I believe
These are the days of lasers in the jungle
Lasers in the jungle somewhere
Staccato signals of constant information
A loose affiliation of millionaires
And billionaires and baby
These are the days of miracle and wonder
This is the long distance call
The way the camera follows us in slo-mo
The way we look to us all
The way we look to a distant constellation
That's dying in a corner of the sky
These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry baby, don't cry
Don't cry, don't cry"

@ pope - I believe the Nuremberg Trials were all military ones.

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/docs_swi.php?DI=1&text=faq

Prince of Pasting Everything"

"A blob is not a child."

You are a few decades behind current science. We've gone over this. You appear to be a slow learner. Time to catch up, my friend.

Abortion is still legal my friends.It's still a womans right.No one but the woman,knows the circumstances behind any abortion,and it is no one elses business either.

@spd3333 - you said "@Ernest W. Liska - Whether Bush and Co. protected us from terrorists or not, I do know one thing and that is my job/career was never safe under Bush and Co."

So you're implying that your job/career is now safe and secure under the Obama Administration? Is the safety of your job relative to the state of the economy or does your profession have some sort of tie in that relies directly on who is in power?

Just curious as to what your profession is.

Okay,this "rollover" as the abj calls it,for Malone College is seriously getting on my nerves!!

LOL

:-)

Peebs

"Abortion is still legal my friends."

Peebs, what's the point? We're quite aware that it's legal. Slavery was legal at one time, too.

The killing of an unborn child should not be the result of "circumstances."

Blobert:

"A blob is not a child."

It just occurred to me, Blobert, that you were once a blob in your mother's womb. A blob with a head, a body, arms, legs, beating heart, and responding to your environment.

In honor of this FACT, Blobert, I proclaim a new name for you: BLOBERT.

The Pope is now...BLOBERT.

Blobert:

Funny how the Church you so despise has always recognized the new life in the womb, well before the science proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How odd that you would reject science and rely on your "faith" that what is growing in the womb is a "blob." Blind faith, I'd say...

Did you have a nice dinosaur ride today, Blobert?

Blobert,

When you copy and paste those song lyrics, are we supposed to read them?

The abortion debate will never ever go away.Everyone has their own opinion on it.
Some are beating a dead horse when it comes to deciding when life actually starts.Its like the evolution argument.Thats always going to be there to.

"President Obama is days away from announcing a new Afghan strategy, but his immediate battle could come from liberals within his own party who are vowing to "spank" the president for committing tens of thousands of more troops to the eight-year conflict."

I see an SNL skit in the making...

Dear Kook Wiser:

I met you once...and that was plenty. Your hatred and hypocrisy never cease to amaze me.

You are an adult blob.

LOL Bud I do too.

They are never going to find Bin Laden,most say he is dead. What he is doing is stupid,he needs to pull everyone out of there.No doubt about that.Pull them out today,why leave them there? Stupid.
Theyve been fighting over there for millions of years and they are going to continue doing so.It dont matter what we do.

millions might be reaching out a bit far****

Peebs- what about the male who got the woman pregnant? what if he wants/does not want the woman to have an abortion? Where are his rights? Saying it's only the woman's desicion is not true. I had a good buddy who's girlfriend at the time had an abortion and he was devestated... think of both parties first.

Id also like some more info on how Tiger Woods is doing after his accident please abj.

@The Monster,
Well your right,you do have to think of everyone involved.

He's now home with a few lacerations to his face. He hit a fire plug and a tree doing under 33 miles an hour, the reason the airbags didn't deploy.....

Thank you for the Tiger update.Thank god he is ok..he is my fav:-)

Hey Pope, speaking of your favorite store, what a great day for the American consumer!


"Canada high court rules for Wal-Mart in union case
By Associated Press business staff
November 27, 2009, 11:38AM
TORONTO -- The Supreme Court of Canada said Friday that Wal-Mart Stores Inc. was entitled to close a store in Quebec in 2005, seven months after workers voted to become the first Wal-Mart in North America to unionize.

The highest court in Canada ruled in a 6-3 margin Friday the multinational had the right to shut down the outlet north of Quebec City and lay off 190 employees.

During the Supreme Court hearings early this year, the company denied it fired its employees because they had just formed a union.

The company said they were let go simply because the store was shutting down.

But workers at the outlet said the two events were related.

In morning trading, Wal-Mart shares fell 28 cents to $54.68."


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/11/canada_high_court_rules_for_wa.html

Well, American via Canadian influence.

eh?

The Bungles won't cover that, though I think they win 24-13.

Per Poop,"If we listen to extreme right-wing religious wing nuts like yourself, ed, we stir up that hornets nest to the 10th power like never before"
Sorry poop, you know nothing about me or my religious beliefs. And I still think the Nazis were tried in a military courtroom. And I believe they were hanged shortl y after they were convicted. Either way, leagaly, they could have been shot at any time.

spd3333, Let me guess who you work for.

peebs02 - sorry but you too are comparing apples to oranges. While I agree that the abortion debate may never go away, I don't agree that there is even a plausible debate over evolution. That is a contrived debate. Evolution is fact. Anything else is contrived by the religious right to sound and look like an actual debate. Any debate so far involving so-called "intelligent design" or "creationism" is equivalent with involving the belief in the existance of Santa Clause.

"It amazes me how many men feel like they can tell women what they should or shouldnt do with THIER bodies."

That's an old one and not very original. I suggest that you put on another record and this time make sure it is a thought that is originally yours and not one you got from a zerox machine.

It amazes me that a woman could take up to 60% of a mans paycheck for 18 years or more. Or if she decides she can get an abortion on demand even if the man is against it. It's not that I may or may not be against abortion, but if it's a two way street one way, why not the other.

@ jason. Please explain your 8:12 am post as far as laws prohibiting women from choosing abortions.

@ Bud. Not all of science is in concert on when human life begins. You're going to say at conception, I'm going to say when cognitive brain function kicks in. You say potato....

Does the Church care about human life? Only when it suits.

@ Jason12:

"Evolution is fact."

Jason, do you have some inside information that the rest of us don't have?

There are plenty of holes in the THEORY of evolution. Could you start by explaining to me the apparent conflict between evolutionary theory and the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

Indy:

When, precisely, does cognitive brain function kick in?

Bud Wiser:

"Do you think for a moment that Clinton or Obama, given the same intel available to Bush, would have prevented 9/11?"

Well, doing absolutely nothing didn't prevent it, that's for certain.

Bud Wiser:

"When, precisely, does cognitive brain function kick in?"

For some, never.

"Well, doing absolutely nothing didn't prevent it, that's for certain."

I'm tired of your bashing of government's effectiveness. Government ALWAYS performs well, hence why we're going to expand its reach so very, very, very, very much.

S. David Worhatch, Stow. Thank you for the review of the Akron FD situation. So few people understand the complexities of civil service agreements and contracts. As Akron Police and Fire understand there are tough times financially for everyone, and are willing to give but we do not want the bean counters to lie about the need. We want honest facts to make a logical decision. To link this, the employees of Summit County Sheriff's office are in negotiations for very similar acts of false representation of financial need. If the county is receiving tax money and saving it for a rainy day then use our monies wisely and spend them, (its raining cats and dogs now) that is what they funds are for, otherwise give the county tax payer a refund for overtaxing. The deputies are willing to give back if it is necessary to our community, and keeping services. The Sheriff and Russ Pry have to make cuts that hurt them as well. You have a large number of friends on the payroll receiving a second and third retirement income, let them go until times are better. Please reconsider your position and let the worker doing a job for the county live a little longer off the unemployment line.

Bud wondered,

"Could you start by explaining to me the apparent conflict between evolutionary theory and the Second Law of Thermodynamics?"

OK. Probability, as used in thermodynamics, means the probability that some specific change will occur. Probability is related to the thermodynamic concept of irreversibility. An irreversible physical or chemical change is a change that will not spontaneously reverse itself without some change in the surrounding conditions. Irreversible changes have a high degree of probability. The probability of an irreversible change spontaneously reversing itself without outside interference is zero.

When we say that a change is irreversible (in the thermodynamics sense) it means only that the change will not spontaneously reverse itself without some change in the surrounding conditions. It does not mean that it cannot be reversed by any means at all.

If we interpreted the Second Law of Thermodynamics the way you want to, we wouldn't have refrigerators.

@ Bud. Just curious. Just how old do you think the earth is?

Indy:

1. My question about evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics was addressed to Jason12. Are you his Dad?

2. As to the age of the Earth - I don't have a clue. (And neither do you)

3. You still need to answer my question to you - When precisely does cognitive brain function begin? Is nmaxxs your Dad?

Ok kinda sorry I used evolution as an example lol.

Bob Crawford
To define the beginning of human life the same way we define the end of human life is not accurate because the human being is in 2 totally different stages of development. So that idea is not really rational. Human Life begins at conception, this has been the logical and medical defintion and its a good one.
There is no other description other than "human life" that can be given a fertilized egg in the womb.
Why don't we once again start taking responsibility in our culture for our actions instead of ending human life because we are inconvenienced.
How about a culture of LIFE instead of one that sees destruction of human life as a viable alternative?

tginakron:

Very nicely said.

Indy:

The Second Law of Thermodynamics (the Law of Entropy) holds that under normal conditions, all systems left on their own tend to become more disordered, dispersed, and corrupted. That is the exact opposite of what the theory of evolution requires - i.e., moving from a disordered primordial soup to highly organized and integrated systems that are so advanced that, in most cases, man is unable to reproduce these systems even with all of our intelligence and technology. But, somehow that is unexplained, chance alone has done a remarkable job of creation. This is lunacy.

The likelihood that these highly organized and integrated systems would come about by chance alone is infinitesimally small, asymptotic to zero.

Add to this other perplexing questions such as where did the first matter come from? How did living organisms arise from non-living?

The bottom line is, despite Jason 12's proclamation that "Evolution is a fact," it remains very much a theory.

Bud,

1. The real bottom line is that you allow dogma to rule.

2. 4.55 billion years (give or take 6,000)

3. 12 weeks, by some

happy? but, you're certainly aware of this data.

peebs = instigator

To heck with abortion arguments. Right now it is legal and should remain that way.

PRO CHOICE !!!

George the lesser refused any info from Clinton's administration because W's administration was involved in 9/11.

Yes, W was in on the action. I am surprised he wasn't flying one of the planes. I told you all several times that he was a communist.

Oops, I mean Arab. He and daddy often slept with the Saudis.

Indy:

1. My arguments with respect to evolution have nothing to do with dogma, just logic and common sense. There are many unanswered questions plus blind faith in chance events. The evolutionists are the ones glued to their dogma.

2. OK. the earth is pretty old. What's the point?

3. If cognitive brain function begins at 12 weeks, and thus by your argument (not mine) marks the beginning of human life, are you in favor of banning abortion after 12 weeks? Certainly you would agree that the taking of innocent human life equals murder, right?

Indy and Jason12:

Consider this scenario: you shipwreck onto a deserted island. While exploring on shore you come across a few rocks arranged in a circle with smoldering ashes in the center, some animal bones tossed nearby, and logs neatly arranged around the circle of rocks. What would you conclude? I suspect you would conclude that there was an intelligent designer somewhere on the island that created the simple arrangement of rocks, logs, etc and of course you would be correct.

Why is it that when we see a simple arrangement of rocks, logs, ashes, and animal bones that we rightly conclude there was an intelligent designer but when we see the much more complex arrangement of the human eye, or consider the ultra-tight control of pH in the body, or even the structure and function of the simplest cell, we conclude that it all came about by a series of chance mutations from some primordial soup and recoil at the suggestion of an Intelligent Designer as some sort of religious fairy tail?

When you deny the existence of your Creator, you are left with some very unintelligent positions to defend.

karl rove,

"To heck with abortion arguments. Right now it is legal and should remain that way."

I thought the topic du jour this week was gay marriage and how legality alone wasn't a good pro excuse?

Hmm, that should probably say topic du jour EVERY DAY this week.

Bud,

The problem with the second law is that there are so many formulations and interpretations. Take yours for example. Because you so dearly want your dogma to be real, you grasp at the Second as proof that evolution is, by nature, impossible. This means two things. First, your stretching the boundaries of the law by applying it to something other than a closed system.

Second, it implies that your faith alone is not enough on this subject.

You could apply the Second Law to your Church. In this case the progression of entropy is quite demonstrable. You know what that means.

If you make you feel better, you can look at it like Thornley & Hill.
They thought the "tendency for entropy to increase in isolated systems is expressed in the second law of thermodynamics — perhaps the most pessimistic and amoral formulation in all human thought."

"What is the soup du jour?"

"It's the Soup of the Day."

"Mmmmm…that sounds good, I'll have that."

Indy:

Do you believe that we evolved, by chance events alone, from primordial soup (whatever that is) to our current highly organized state by chance alone? Doesn't that position require a TON of faith in random events??

I'd say it takes a lot more faith than I have.

TOJ:

Jump in. The water's fine.

Bud,

I think your last post (3:23) was one the more simplistic, naive and silly posts you've ever penned. I was just blown away by the rocks and sticks on a beach argument. It certainly made me sit up and rethink everything I ever believed. Where did find this gem of an explanation? Jeeeesh. I doubt even your kids would even swallow that one.

Indy:

Really?? That's your best response?

Nice strategy.

peebs = the poop's sycophant

Were you guys this warm and friendly with each other when you met at Moe's this year? Did anybody actually utter the word "Kook?"

That ? is not just for Indy and Bud.

@Toj,
I wondered the same thing.

TOJ:

I don't recall hearing the word "Kook" at Moes. If it was, it was by Truth Sought who was as agitated as he usually is on the forum.

TOJ

Moe's is all about warm and friendly.

"How about a culture of LIFE instead of one that sees destruction of human life as a viable alternative?"
I curious about some of the peoples posting on the abortion issue. How do you feel about the death penalty?

Personally ,Im for it.Id like to see it executed the day they are sentenced to it,not 20 years later.

@Independent
Do you go to Moes when everyone meets? I'd sure like to know of the next time,I would love to go and meet all of you .Be nice to put a face to the name.
Ya know what they say,curiosity killed the cat:-)