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Do IT this week: Layering
By Patrick McManamon
Beacon Journal sports columnist
POSTED: 10:08 p.m. EDT, Jul 29, 2009
A friend was chatting on his cell phone Wednesday afternoon when his home phone rang (technology).
He picked up the home phone, chatted for a minute and came back on the line.
''It was my wife,'' he said. ''She said to tell the Indians to shove it up their rear end.''
There's no need to do that, really.
It's a bit unseemly, and there's plenty of other folks already taking care of it.
The trade of Cliff Lee to the Philadelphia Phillies did not and will not play well on the North Coast. Because the trade doesn't smell right, look right or feel right.
Two years in a row now, the Indians have dealt the reigning Cy Young Award winner. (The only reason they didn't trade the MVP is they don't have him.)
Last year, they traded the Cy Young winner for guys who have made cameo appearances in the major leagues.
This year, they traded the Cy Young winner for four prospects.
Twice, they traded the best pitcher in the American League for guys who have potential.
It used to be that potential got guys fired.
Potential now makes the Pittsburgh Pirates into a farm team for the Boston Red Sox and the Indians into a farm team for anyone on the East Coast.
This seems to take us back to the days of trading Graig Nettles and acquiring guys like Charlie Spikes, the Bogalusa Bomber.
But that's where the Indians are as they absorb the brunt impact of a sputtering Ohio economy and a bad season.
Payroll is based on revenues. Revenues are dependent on attendance and merchandising and sponsorships. Attendance and merchandising and sponsorships are dependent on wins. The wins are not there this year. So neither are the revenues.
The team has been on an austerity drive all season, trying to reduce expenses where it can.
But . . . Lee's trade was not a salary dump. The Indians' owners did not instruct General Manager Mark Shapiro to reduce salary and get rid of contracts.
But . . . next year's payroll might drop by 25 percent, and Travis Hafner is due $11.5 million, Jake Westbrook $11 million and Kerry Wood $10.5 million.
The math is not complex.
Shapiro had said all along he had to feel compelled to make a trade. He liked the group of players he acquired well enough that he said the Indians would be a consistent contending team again in a short time.
But the feel of it is just not right. And the public perception is not good. Especially when you factor in that the Indians received none of the guys whom the Toronto Blue Jays were demanding for Roy Halladay. It comes across that the Indians accepted the Phillies' ''next'' group.
That will matter only if all four players fail to make it as major leaguers.
If they all can play, it won't matter if they were the first, 13th or 783rd group.
Hanging on to Lee seemed to be sensible, because the message that trading him sends to fans is that next year is a washout.
The Indians might not believe that's the message, and they might not accept that's the message, but that's sure the one the fans heard.
The Indians looked at next year's roster and saw that Lee, Victor Martinez and Westbrook are all in the last years of their contracts.
They did not expect to be able to sign all three, and they also knew that next year's reduced payroll would hamper their ability to improve the team if they had those three salaries on the team.
They could have ridden out 2010 and seen what happened, but decided to make moves now rather than wait.
They head to 2010 with a rotation that might include Fausto Carmona and Westbrook and also might include Aaron Laffey and Jeremy Sowers and David Huff and . . . who knows.
Who are the guys they acquired?
Carlos Carrasco is in Triple-A at the age of 22, which is a good sign. He's somewhat of a right-handed Cliff Lee.
Jason Knapp might be the best prospect acquired, but he's 18, which means he's three or four years away.
Lou Marson is a catcher, which is an interesting acquisition, given the Indians have Martinez and Carlos Santana. Perhaps this is a prelude to Martinez moving permanently to first base, which would put Matt LaPorta in left field.
Jason Donald provides middle-infield depth.
A lot of good trades are made by teams that send one player to a contending team, because the contending team is desperate and gives up a lot.
The Indians have made some of those, acquiring Sandy Alomar Jr. and Carlos Baerga for Joe Carter, and getting Lee, Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon.
Nobody knows what the results of this trade will be, but everyone can say that the Indians lost a starting rotation anchor — check his numbers closely this year and they're almost as good as last season — and got not one major-league player in return.
That just doesn't feel good.
The Indians best hope it feels better in a couple years.
Patrick McManamon can be reached at pmcmanamon@thebeaconjournal.com. Read his blog at http://www.ohio.com/mcmanamon/. Follow Pat on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/patmcmanamon.
A friend was chatting on his cell phone Wednesday afternoon when his home phone rang (technology).
He picked up the home phone, chatted for a minute and came back on the line.
''It was my wife,'' he said. ''She said to tell the Indians to shove it up their rear end.''
There's no need to do that, really.
It's a bit unseemly, and there's plenty of other folks already taking care of it.
The trade of Cliff Lee to the Philadelphia Phillies did not and will not play well on the North Coast. Because the trade doesn't smell right, look right or feel right.
Two years in a row now, the Indians have dealt the reigning Cy Young Award winner. (The only reason they didn't trade the MVP is they don't have him.)
Last year, they traded the Cy Young winner for guys who have made cameo appearances in the major leagues.
This year, they traded the Cy Young winner for four prospects.
Twice, they traded the best pitcher in the American League for guys who have potential.
It used to be that potential got guys fired.
Potential now makes the Pittsburgh Pirates into a farm team for the Boston Red Sox and the Indians into a farm team for anyone on the East Coast.
This seems to take us back to the days of trading Graig Nettles and acquiring guys like Charlie Spikes, the Bogalusa Bomber.
But that's where the Indians are as they absorb the brunt impact of a sputtering Ohio economy and a bad season.
Payroll is based on revenues. Revenues are dependent on attendance and merchandising and sponsorships. Attendance and merchandising and sponsorships are dependent on wins. The wins are not there this year. So neither are the revenues.
The team has been on an austerity drive all season, trying to reduce expenses where it can.
But . . . Lee's trade was not a salary dump. The Indians' owners did not instruct General Manager Mark Shapiro to reduce salary and get rid of contracts.
But . . . next year's payroll might drop by 25 percent, and Travis Hafner is due $11.5 million, Jake Westbrook $11 million and Kerry Wood $10.5 million.
The math is not complex.
Shapiro had said all along he had to feel compelled to make a trade. He liked the group of players he acquired well enough that he said the Indians would be a consistent contending team again in a short time.
But the feel of it is just not right. And the public perception is not good. Especially when you factor in that the Indians received none of the guys whom the Toronto Blue Jays were demanding for Roy Halladay. It comes across that the Indians accepted the Phillies' ''next'' group.
That will matter only if all four players fail to make it as major leaguers.
If they all can play, it won't matter if they were the first, 13th or 783rd group.
Hanging on to Lee seemed to be sensible, because the message that trading him sends to fans is that next year is a washout.
The Indians might not believe that's the message, and they might not accept that's the message, but that's sure the one the fans heard.
The Indians looked at next year's roster and saw that Lee, Victor Martinez and Westbrook are all in the last years of their contracts.
They did not expect to be able to sign all three, and they also knew that next year's reduced payroll would hamper their ability to improve the team if they had those three salaries on the team.
They could have ridden out 2010 and seen what happened, but decided to make moves now rather than wait.
They head to 2010 with a rotation that might include Fausto Carmona and Westbrook and also might include Aaron Laffey and Jeremy Sowers and David Huff and . . . who knows.
Who are the guys they acquired?
Carlos Carrasco is in Triple-A at the age of 22, which is a good sign. He's somewhat of a right-handed Cliff Lee.
Jason Knapp might be the best prospect acquired, but he's 18, which means he's three or four years away.
Lou Marson is a catcher, which is an interesting acquisition, given the Indians have Martinez and Carlos Santana. Perhaps this is a prelude to Martinez moving permanently to first base, which would put Matt LaPorta in left field.
Jason Donald provides middle-infield depth.
A lot of good trades are made by teams that send one player to a contending team, because the contending team is desperate and gives up a lot.
The Indians have made some of those, acquiring Sandy Alomar Jr. and Carlos Baerga for Joe Carter, and getting Lee, Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon.
Nobody knows what the results of this trade will be, but everyone can say that the Indians lost a starting rotation anchor — check his numbers closely this year and they're almost as good as last season — and got not one major-league player in return.
That just doesn't feel good.
The Indians best hope it feels better in a couple years.
Patrick McManamon can be reached at pmcmanamon@thebeaconjournal.com. Read his blog at http://www.ohio.com/mcmanamon/. Follow Pat on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/patmcmanamon.
Comments
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Posted 10:20 PM, 07/29/2009
Indians should give free game tickets to the new prospects so they can tell their children and grand children they were in a major league ball park. Go Tribe
Akron, OH
Posted 10:28 PM, 07/29/2009
Demand refunds on ALL Jerseys purchased this year associated with the traded players - demand the money from Shapiro himself!
I can't stand watching teams give up . . . I wonder if Shapiro is really French?
Cuyahoga Falls, OH
Posted 10:38 PM, 07/29/2009
I'm just gonna toss this out: The Cleveland fans are partly responsible for this trade.
Why?
The Tribe fielded playoff contenders in 2005 and 2007, and the fans did not respond. Even late in the season, there was no discernible increase in attendance.
Playoff years are "supposed" to show up the following year at the gate....but that didn't happen, either. 2006 and 2008 were washouts financially, even before the seasons were lost.
Bottom line: Stop talking about the 455 sellouts. That was a fluke era of the past. If fans are not going to attend games in respectable numbers now, the payroll will never be able to support great players. (Poor decisions like Hafner, notwithstanding. That one's on Shapiro.)
North Hill, OH
Posted 10:56 PM, 07/29/2009
Reality check: fans have nothing to do with performance on the field. You expect people to show up for a losing team? Sell outs for the team with the 2nd worst record in MLB? Sorry, that's now how it works.
On the plus side, for the Tribe and Browns I've just traded in a couple of "Maybe next year"s for one "maybe in 5 years." Seems like a good deal...
Cuyahoga Falls, Oh
Posted 11:22 PM, 07/29/2009
"Who are these f-ing guys."
Cuyahoga Falls, Oh
Posted 11:23 PM, 07/29/2009
"Who are these blank guys"
Akron, OH
Posted 12:40 AM, 07/30/2009
The way the a Tribe brass does it is no way to run a baseball team. They have ticked me of for the last time. I now have no interest whatsoever in the Indians.
RMK, ex-Indian fan, Akron
Posted 01:26 AM, 07/30/2009
Waiting for what? I'm done...
Posted 01:28 AM, 07/30/2009
Cleveland Sports Teams = losers. Next year = Never...
Posted 01:30 AM, 07/30/2009
I was at a game 2 weeks ago and they had ushers throwing people out of empty seats in center field... these folks are clueless and will not get another nickel from me...
Posted 07:36 AM, 07/30/2009
Well good for Cliff lee. He's leaving a team who he pitched great for, note the era, and got no hitting and no bullpen backup. He's going to a first place team and will thrive there. In return the Indians are getting exactly what they gave Lee..... NOTHING!
Akron, OH
Posted 07:40 AM, 07/30/2009
If you are an Indians fan and buy any Indians merchandise or go to a game, you are a traitor. This owner is so cheap, he does not deserve your support.
Mentor, OH
Posted 08:14 AM, 07/30/2009
Why now? Shapiro kept saying that he would only trade Lee if overwhelmed by talent. While I will not do what other fans have done and knock these guys, they are highly rated players who played in the futures game and or Olympics and 3 will likely be on the Indians roster next season. But it seems the level of talent is not overwhelming. It is what he likely could have gotten next year at this time if the team was not contending.
It seems like this was a GM that felt he had to dump salary and took less talent to do so. Maybe that is just because Toronto wanted different players. In three years maybe the guys we got will be better than the ones the BJs asked for, maybe worse. That is the inexact science of scouting.
But most of the guys we got are having down years and or are injured. So we bought when there value was low. But why did that not get us more? And why a catcher and a middle infielder? A catcher that is not likely better than 4 we already have? A middle infielder that likely will replace Carroll as utility guy?
Is that really enough for a year and half of Lee?
What did other teams offer? How about you reporters get us some information.
To the fans that do not know these players, that is your ignorance. They are big time prospects. Are they enough? Does not seem like it.
Posted 08:21 AM, 07/30/2009
Yes it is a salary dump. The tribe could have kept Cliff Lee and then put him on the market next July unless they were in contention. At that time they get a few prospects for him. Wake up Patrick! The tribe needs to get rid of Wedge and Willis so as to not contaminate these new prospects.
Mentor, OH
Posted 08:21 AM, 07/30/2009
One more thing, why Ben Francisco? I know some fans hated Ben and thought he sucked. But Ben was ripping the ball off the cover and seemed like he finally had made the adjustment. Interesting that the Phillies really wanted the guy. I think for good reason. We will look back in a couple years and wonder why we would throw him in.
No doubt Shapiro looked at Columbus and saw Crowe, Brantley and LaPorta and felt he had enough OF to replace Ben. But I doubt Crowe is ever that level of player. LaPorta should be at first. Brantley takes over for Sizemore in CF. Next year is Sizemore's last. His contract situation will be like Lee's this year.
So I would have said keep your catcher and I keep Ben.
Posted 08:35 AM, 07/30/2009
Where's my post ABJ?
Naples, FL
Posted 08:57 AM, 07/30/2009
Why would we care who the Blue Jays wanted for Halladay? Are the Indians needs the same? The Jays wanted two outfielders, a position of strength in the Tribes current team and minor league system. Also, the Tribe had scouted the Phillies heavily last year while talking to them about C.C. so perhaps they knew the Phillies young players better than the Jays. By the way, the Jays didn't get a deal done for Hallady so its a moot point and perhaps a big mistake for the Jays.
Canton, OH
Posted 09:01 AM, 07/30/2009
Yesterday was a sad day in Injuns' History. . .A SALARY CAP IS NEEDED IN BASEBALL. . .
uniontown, oh
Posted 09:07 AM, 07/30/2009
My father and I have had a 20 game package since 1994. As of yesterday it will not be renewed. I will not watch another game. I will not listen to another game. I will not attend another game. So glad I had to grow up a Cleveland sports fan. 29 years old and I have not enjoyed a championship season yet. Maybe nex.......UGH!
, OH
Posted 09:33 AM, 07/30/2009
You can't blame the fans. The fans were NOT here when Dick Jacobs bought this team. He spent the money and built a team that was exciting and a perennial contender. Dolan got suckered into buying this team when it was financially maxed out and he probably overpaid for it. That's not the fans' fault. Did he really think that they'd keep winning for twenty years and they'd keep selling out for twenty years and he'd never have to spend his own money or do anything to keep this team competitive? He is out of his league when it comes to owning a team like this and he destroying what was once a great franchise.
, OH
Posted 09:37 AM, 07/30/2009
And another thing...If I were Shapiro my voice mail message would have been, " Greetings! You have reached the voice mail of Mark Shapiro, If you're calling about trading for the reigning Cy Young Award winner Cliff Lee, and you are not offering at least your best minor league prospect, please hang up now."
Stow, OH
Posted 09:58 AM, 07/30/2009
Can someone tell me what good it does to get prospects when you trade them in their prime anyway ?
After putting up with the awful baseball of the 70's and 80's I have seen enough. I will not watch or spend anymore money on this team. I don't even care if they sell it and move,MLB has become a bad joke.
Paradise, Oh
Posted 10:03 AM, 07/30/2009
Crowe is a stiff. Where's LaPorta?
Posted 10:08 AM, 07/30/2009
Shapiro says the fans do not see the future. I think we all see the future...a losing team for generations to come. I am happy for Cliff Lee. He is not only a good pitcher, but a good guy. Did you see him on television yesterday during the game? He couldn't stop smiling. He is a winner now with a winning team. Good luck to Cliff Lee. I hope Detroit sweeps the Tribe this weekend. They are a bunch of losers!
Ridgeley, WV
Posted 10:27 AM, 07/30/2009
This is not a salary dump?!?
Look we all know this trade had to happen. The team is rebuilding, and Cliff Lee wanted no part of that, but there is NO reason to trade him now, unless you get a teams top prospect, and then their 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 10th prospect. Lee is under contract thru next year. Pick up his option, and then work the best deal. Time was on Shapiro's side, unlike last year with CC.
Simply a horrible deal!
Posted 10:56 AM, 07/30/2009
WAIT TILL NEXT YEAR!
Posted 11:19 AM, 07/30/2009
Hey Pat, according to the Plain Dealer, Shapiro was instructed to cut payroll for next year.
North Canton, Oh
Posted 01:37 PM, 07/30/2009
I QUIT BEING A FAN LONG AGO, BECAUSE OF BONEHEAD TRADES. IF YOU'RE DUMPING PAYROLL GO ALL OUT.DUMP GOLDEN BOY, TRAVIS HAFNER. NAAH..HE HAS POTENTIAL!(SHHISSH!)THE OWNER OF THE INDIANS AND PIRATES SHOULD COMBINE AND MAKE ONE TEAM, AND NAME THEM THE POTENTIALS! GTF..OUUTA HERE!
Posted 02:15 PM, 07/30/2009
More of the same. I have no faith in a regime that still keeps Eric Wedge. Talk about giving up! Now they condemn whoever follows wedgie to have a terrible team. By the way, regarding the Indians attendance here is a Cleveland reality. The teams are loved in this order:
1. Browns. Cleveland is and always will be a football town.
2. Cavs as long as they have Lebron.
3. Indians. Pass the Cavs only if Lebron leaves and they get better.
But remember the Indians great years in the nineties were when the Browns were out of football and the Cavs sucked.
Mansfield, OH
Posted 02:22 PM, 07/30/2009
@Rick - "They are big time prospects."
Baseball America Top 100 Prospects Rankings:
#52 - Carlos Carrasco
#66 - Lou Marson (most errors by a catcher in AA last season)
#69 - Jason Donald (the next Jamey Carroll)
NR - Jason Knapp (shut down with shoulder stiffness by the Phillies)
In contrast,
Carlos Santana is #26 (highest Indian) on the same list and Matt LaPorta is #27.
Just because they're ranked 2,3,4 and 10 in the Phils system doesn't make them "big time prospects." Check your facts Rick.
Antioch, Fl
Posted 02:33 PM, 07/30/2009
Don't be so upset Pat, It's just Dolan Inc's annual fire sale.
Seriously, I read an old article that claimed Dolan's lifelong ambition was to own a AA Baseball team. He got his wish, too bad he started out with a MLB team to get there.
Langley, WA
Posted 02:44 PM, 07/30/2009
At 65 years old and an indian fan for 60 of them, i am now done with them until the Dolan's sell this team to someone who really cares about Cleveland and its fans. These guys are out of the 60s, develop and sell! But of course they are cable company people--all bottom line. the best spin on this is that if they want to sell the team, they are better selling a strong farm system then a top heavy roster..but i dont think that is it. GO MARINERS!
Posted 03:27 PM, 07/30/2009
Here's how I see the situation.
The Cleveland-Akron market is the 17th largest market in the country. The Cleveland Indians had the 15th highest payroll in baseball at the start of the season at around $81 million.
The Dolans committed to this payroll because they believed Mark Shapiro when he said the team would contend in the Central Division this year and they expected attendance of around 2.3 million fans, maybe 2.5 million.
Unfortunately for the Dolans, they believed Shapiro, just as they have for the past seven years and they have nothing to show for it. Shapiro has drafted close to 80 pitchers since he's been GM (look it up at baseball-reference.com) and only three of them have even made it to the minors.
Additionally, they have not developed any "difference makers" in their position players. They can identify other teams prospects, but Shapiro and company are unable to identify and develop their own when it comes to scouting, drafting, and developing their own.
Can anyone name the last time a "difference maker" came through the system that was "home grown". That would be CC Sabathia and he was drafted under the John Hart regime.
You want to know where the Indians problems started?
Take a look at Mr "Double Speak" Shapiro. Since he's in charge of all baseball operations, the buck stops with him. The Dolans can do us all a favor and get rid of his ASAP and then the new GM can bring in a real manager.
Too bad it will never happen!
Posted 03:29 PM, 07/30/2009
Correction to my above post:
"Unfortunately for the Dolans, they believed Shapiro, just as they have for the past seven years and they have nothing to show for it. Shapiro has drafted close to 80 pitchers since he's been GM (look it up at baseball-reference.com) and only three of them have even made it to the majors."
North Olmsted, Oh
Posted 03:38 PM, 07/30/2009
@bumboat2
That really sums up the entire problem with the Indians:
Mark Shapiro
Good Post!
Canton, OH
Posted 04:22 PM, 07/30/2009
"The Waiting is the hardest part". . . with apologies to Tom Petty. . . .
Posted 06:27 PM, 07/30/2009
My big question on this trade is this. Why did we get, what appears to be good quality for Derosa and get mediocre appearing talent for Lee ?
Tallmadge, OH
Posted 07:57 PM, 07/30/2009
You couldn't give me tickets to an Indians game for free. The Cheapskate Dolans and their GM lacky Shapiro have ruined this once great franchise. Everyone shold boycott every game going forward. Make these folks pay for trading away all the great talent leaving no0thing but want to be's.
Akrom, Oh
Posted 08:15 PM, 07/30/2009
I hope the Tribe can dump Hafner and Wood before next year if they want to save some cash. As for the Lee trade, it stinks! There is absolutely no guarantee that any one of these prospects will ever become a solid major leaguer, in fact the odds are agaiinst it. If 1 out of 4 can make it to the bigs you'll be bucking the odds. It has basically become a plan for 2012, if everything goes really really perfect. If not, which is more likely, we'll become the American league Pirates!
Kandi, SL
Posted 06:55 PM, 08/19/2009
FEAR THE ROO!
