I agree. The key question has noting to do with who plays qb or what offensive system we attempt to use or whether we should continue the 3-4. None of that really matters until you answer these questions:

1. Do you trust Mankok to make good use of all their draft choices and free agency in rebuilding this team? We know that they can get rid of good players-but can they find them?
2. What evidence or data can you find on the current roster that Mankok know how to build and develop talent? If you can't then refer to question 1.

Hire a real GM to hire a real coach.

So rather than continuing a mistake ''just because,'' you want to make a change in head coach "just because?" And the guy you pick is Rob Ryan? Why? Because he amuses you at his press conferences? It certainly can't be because of how well he coordinates the lowest ranking defensive unit in the league. Sounds like you want Rob Ryan "just because."

Ok, you wanna play the "Mangini Must Go" card, fine. But riddle me this, Patman. If the Browns were suddenly disbanded tomorrow, how many of these players could or would actually start next week for ANY NFL team? Joe Thomas and...??? No talent is no talent. Don Shula would be 1-6 with these guys, too. And I couldn't care less about Mangini either way.

Not a big fan of Mangini or of the way Brady has got scr*wed, but remember you guys ran Belichick out on a rail for much the same reasons. Maybe it's a poor analogy, but Cooper, Tressel and Rich Rodriguez also didn't have the best of first seasons.

The Cleveland sport scene is hopeless. It is like science fiction that one town can have such miserable teams. Disband them all and give it up.

The Browns are in disarray. . .

You know I really want to be patient but it seems like we are headed the way of the indians in the 80's where they didn't want to spend any money for any proven players. I know you can find a diamond in the rough sometimes but you can't find an entire team in the rough.

I believe the biggest mistake we made was getting rid of Savage. You can not say he didn't make sure we had some skill playmakers - edwards, winslow, thomas, jurevicius, cribbs, steinbach. Whether you liked their personalities or not they made plays. Once we got rid of our GM and allowed the coach to hire his boss/GM I knew there was going to be a problem.

Now Mangini has gotten rid of any hope of a skill player, waiting for cribbs to go, screwing up two good, not great, quarterbacks and about to get a up and coming defensive coordinator fired. How can you expect a quarterback to have a chance, anderson or quinn, if you don't have any receivers that have to have a ball right on their numbers because they can't make plays. How do you expect to have a running game when you have a rookie center trying to figure out how to protect and make holes. How do you expect a defense to get better when they are on the field so much.

You can not win if no one is holding you accountable or always making sure we have the right players. You can't do this if you are a control freak head coach that hired a YES man for your GM.

At least when we had the Savage/Crennel crew you heard from Savage when things weren't going good. What type of organization are we running!!!!!

Mangini should never have been hired with the Browns, period. They are getting worse and I didn't think that was possible. I noticed in the 1st quarter the number of empty seats and 1/2 way through the 3rd quarter it was even emptier; I've never seen that in my life.

Ryan is no more a head coach than Mangini, but would do fine in the interim between now and the end of the season.

That all said, no way this team gets any better until Lerner sells the team. He just doesn't care about the fate or performance of this franchise.

I am not an Augusta Gloop fan. Give him at least until after the next draft to see how he picks. We have 12 draft picks. If he screws that up...then we are surrounded by incompetence and he needs to be fired!!

Keep Mangini UNLESS BILL COWHER or MIKE SHANAHAN wants to come here. Otherwise, Mangini will build a foundation. Three years from now, this team will be .500.

I predict Mangini will draft and lay a solid defensive foundation. I give him 3 years.

Keep in mind that all of the previous coaches FAILED to build a foundation that I refer to above.

@ EnzyteBob,

All the guys you mentioned were proven winners before moving on and Rich Rod is still not having a stellar second season at U of M.

Mangini, not so much.

Pat I agree with you 100% I have played sports and have had a coach you could not stand. Say what you will but the player's are young and not fully mature. It is clear they dont like him,but the biggest reason what could be. You have a collection of coaches that are avalable right now. Gruden Cowher Shanihan Holmgren and yes marty! They would be an instant improvement. I guarantee you the players are not that bad.

Kirtland Pat raises a good question-how many players on the Browns could start anywhere else? Answer: Pat-you now admit that Mangini drafted 8 nonstarters last year. And none of the free agents he brought in could start elsewhere. Riddle me this Kirtland Pat-if Mangini turned over 40% of the roster thruogh draft choices and free agents and couldn't find, by your own definition, a single player who could start anywhere else-then WHY should we trust Mangini to rebuild this team?

Wow! Looks a lot like the same comments from the last couple of years. I guess the comments were pasted and the Crennel/Savage names have now been replaced by Mangini/Kokinis!

All of this is kind of funny. A few years ago the fans hear in San Diego said Marty couldn't win the big game and wanted him gone. Now that Norv Turner's version of the Chargers play .500 ball, a lot of fans are complaining that they'd wish Marty was still here....he'd do better.

Constant change doesn't do any good. The Browns will get better. Besides, if they do get rid of Mangini, do you really trust Lerner to pick a coach? Anyone

Anyone now wish the group that was affiliated wish Don Shula had got the new franchise?

The MOST troubling thing is that most people who used to enjoy and support the Browns don't give a flip about this team anymore. The spirited Browns vs Steelers banter that I used to see in the Mahoning Valley is GONE! Most Browns fans in the Valley are now realizing that this team is going nowhere. I am actually seeing Bengals sportwear being worn by people who just can't stand the thought of supporting the Steelers. Thats a new one! At least they still support their state.

"Three years from now, this team will be .500. "

my god. is this what it's come to? three years to .500??? i hope in three years mangini is far away from cleveland, long forgotten and browns fans can laugh about his short tenure as they enjoy a respectable team.

Thank you for being truthful. We fans are not getting much of that lately. Mangini should be fired and Quinn should atart and eith prove or disprove his place next year. Anderson is not the answer for sure.

Pat's quite correct, if the clowns are going to get better, they should correct this mistake. they're totally outcoached week in and week out; that's the clownies. this is mancukoo's team with the new players to the nutty trading down in the draft. what a pathetic product. save your money and stay home if you want something better.

Browns games should be aired on the History Channel.

Mangini should be fired. Quinn should start and either prove himself or not. The season should not be wasted any longer with this DA madness. Anyone who goes along with this nonsense from Mangini and Daboll are the kind of people who just stand there and watch when someone is being stabbed to death.

Sheese Guys! We had SIX starters show up on Wednesday due to flu. What did you think was gonna happen? Firing Crennel/Savage when we lost while playing a 4th string QB and 3rd string recievers due to injuries made just about as much sense. Now we want to fire this staff after 6 games? Just keep the revolving door going and we'll keep going around in circles. Remember, we already fired Shottenheimer, and Bellicheck, and let Cower go. How'd that work out for ya?

I'm a Browns fan since I was a kid so I suffer just as much as the rest of us however I'm willing to give Mangini more than one season. I think the blame for the poor offensive performance lies more in Brian Daboll than Mangini.

I just shake my head at some of the play calling. Third and long and you run it up the gut? That play has almost zero chance for first down. And how often are we going to see the same play over and over? Way too predictable. If we keep Mangini, I think we need a seasoned OC. Look what Cam Cameron is doing in Baltimore. He may stink as a head coach but he's lights out as an OC. I think the Browns can do something similar. How many OCs were "the flavor of the month" when a head coaching job came open and just couldn't cut it as a head coach? Grab one of those guys.

Pat is 100% correct - and not 'just because'. PAt has given clear, concise reasons why this team is regressing while it should be - given the fact Mangini has put his 'system guys' in - at least showing signs of playing some decent fundamental ball. It's not happening.

How on earth can anyone have any faith in Mangini......a documented liar, cheater, and cover-up con artist?

Let's see now.....

Participated in videogate while asst coach in NE and then remained hush about it until it benefits HIS team. Check.

Cooked the injury reports on Brett Favre for almost half the year. Check.

Currently trying to keep the actual details of the James Davis injury from leaking out. NFL found no wrongdoing, Players Union outraged. Check.

Reportedly has agents throughout the NFL steering their player/clients away from the Mangini Browns come FA season. Check.

Current NYJ players openly critical of him. Check.

NYJ team appears to be left in worse shape than previously believed. Check.

Peter King reports hearing agents of CURRENT Browns players that he is as hated and disrespected as any HC in the league. Check.






Hey, other than that, he has a lot going for him!

Jimmy Johnson had a horrible first year in Dallas but built a foundation. I think you need to give the coach 2-3 years to see if he is putting the building blocks in place.

If you can tell me exactly what they are building, I'll buy the "foundation" argument, but after 7 weeks and a long training camp and preseason, I challenge anyone to tell me what the offensive philosophy is for this team, what the defensive philosophy is of this team and what EXACTLY they are trying to build? Even if an artist was given a giant pile of poop and he tried to make a sculpture out of it, after seven weeks it may not be a work of art, but you should at least be able to tell what he trying to make out of it, shouldn't you???!

Another week goes by and Pat re-writes the same exact column again.

Pat, try analyzing the game and giving your opinion on how things whould be different rather than just stating the obvious... They're a bad team right now.

You're the pure definition of a Monday Morning Quaterback, but you only use the final score to bring forth your opinion.

They're not playing well. So what should they do to improve? How will turn things around? You don't have a clue because you know very little about football. A good sports writer would dissect the game and have opinions on what happened.

Do us a favor... read a few Terry Pluto articles and maybe you'll have an idea of how to write an article after watching a football game.

If the ABJ needs a Browns beat writer that can actually form an opinion about the ins and outs of an NFL game.... i'll do it for free.

3 questions:

1. How many of these comments which are in agreement with the article are actually Pat McManamon himself writing under an alias to act like he has more support than he actually does.

2. Why is it that some of the negative comments that are posted mysteriously disappear?

3. Can we get that comparison of you vs. Pluto????

I'll Monday morning quarterback next weeks game today. The browns lose big, again. The defensive secondary is beat, and there is no running game. Oh yea, the right side of the ol does their screen door impression again....

this team is a joke.