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Do IT this week: Layering
Browns owner hired Mangini in hopes that he would discipline team, teach players how to work together
By Patrick McManamon
Beacon Journal sports columnist
POSTED: 09:07 a.m. EST, Nov 15, 2009
Coach Eric Mangini's year seems hell-bent on misery. Just this week Browns veteran running back Jamal Lewis blasted Mangini for his overly long practices (the next day Lewis said the media made too much of his statements . . . OK . . . sure) and then came word that a second player was injured in the post-practice ''opportunity session.''
Mangini spent his entire Friday media session and not one question was asked about the Baltimore Ravens or football.
This is the state of your Browns.
The games no longer seem to matter.
Maybe it's because the games are so dismally bad.
Alas . . . we digress.
Two injuries in these ''opportunity sessions'' has to be either the worst luck in the history of professional football, or the worst planning and execution of practices, or the worst making of your own luck. Ever.
When one player is hurt in after-practice practice (James Davis) it's one thing, but when a second ruptures a patella tendon in another post-practice session, it's either stupidity or stubbornness or off-the-charts misfortune.
Owner Randy Lerner will take a lot of shots for the team's state, and he accepts the criticism.
But his thinking when he made his hires was not borne of illogic.
One can disagree with the decisions and the process, but the needs and requirements in his mind were clear.
Lerner knew he had come off a situation where the quarterback had been punched in the weight room by a teammate, players had scuffled on the sidelines and others had not been held accountable for breaking rules.
Too, his general manager was undercutting the coach, which meant the two were not working together.
Lerner wanted more discipline.
He wanted to change the Browns' culture in terms of their work ethic and accountability and ability to work together.
And he wanted to win with the right players, meaning dependable, trustworthy players.
The first person he interviewed was Mangini, and Mangini impressed him.
It's hard to see that when you see the public Mangini, but Mangini in private can do that; he's a different person when he's in an individual setting.
Then Lerner wanted a GM who would get along with Mangini, who would work with him.
So he agreed to the guy Mangini suggested, George Kokinis, and he believed them when they said they would work together. Lerner trusted them.
It's the way he runs the Browns. He hires people he believes will succeed, then he gets out of their way and lets them do their jobs. He does not want to interfere. Some say he needs to be more involved. It's his style.
The GM choice did not work out. Mangini is blamed in some quarters, Kokinis in others.
At this point, Lerner would probably concede that he tried too hard to find a compatible pair coming off an incompatible one, which is why he's looking for a stronger individual to run football.
What has worked well?
Mangini has brought more discipline to the Browns.
He has cut penalties and held players accountable for wrongdoing — the infamous $1,701 water bottle fine was to a player who had 50-some similar infractions. He also got rid of guys whose egos he thought were too big for the team — like Kellen Winslow and Braylon Edwards.
But his Browns have been flat lousy on the field — remember that part of the equation, the actual games? — and he's also brought many problems.
As one NFL insider put it: ''Right plan, wrong guy.''
As in, Mangini wants to do the right things, to bring in the right kind of players, but he's not the person to achieve the plan because he brings too much negativity and physical and mental stress with his control-oriented approach.
Does Lerner bear responsibility for what has happened?
Absolutely. He would not disagree.
Did he have logic for his decisions?
Yes.
Did the decisions work?
Look at the situation and the results.
What's he doing about it?
He's trying to get this next decision (decisions) right. Cue laugh track here if you like. But it's the Lerner family's team, and demanding they're going to sell isn't going to make someone else swoop in and take over.
Mistakes happen. Springsteen misses a chord, but he doesn't sell the guitar. Same with Lerner. Things didn't work out, and he's trying to address the situation by bringing in someone experienced and credible who can run the football operations.
When that happens and who it is, we will see.
Too, Lerner will hold Mangini accountable. A new GM/football guy might hold him even more accountable.
But that's likely to be after the season.
Unless the ridiculous turmoil of the past week continues and forces a reassessment.
Other side of town|
The complete flip side of the Browns?
The Cavaliers, who had an especially good week.
Winning back-to-back in Florida over the Orlando Magic and Miami Heat was important, but the way the Cavs won was more important.
They won by, it seems, finding themselves.
''I'm happy,'' coach Mike Brown said after beating the Magic. ''The trust we've shown on both sides of the ball. That's the biggest thing for me.''
Trust is a big term to Brown — and to him it means relying on teammates, believing in teammates, believing in the team.
That attitude propelled the Cavs to 66 wins a year ago, and Brown has never wavered that this year's team could share the same trust even with two superstars in LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal.
He also said that early in the season there would be some bumps, and he wasn't wavering from that reality even after the win against the Magic.
''We're kind of trying to figure out who we are,'' Brown said. ''But we can go through that process and do a few things. We can go through that process and trust one another.''
This is why Brown is so appealing.
He's honest enough to concede that he, like his team, is in a bit of a murky place in terms of finding itself and how it wants to play. But he also concedes, honestly, that there's enough talent to win even with some murkiness.
The Cavs ''struggled'' early, and some of it seemed to have something to do with the uncertainty surrounding Delonte West.
But as time has gone on and West has been unable to avoid personal issues that affect the team, it almost seems as if the team has moved on, too. At least when it comes to play on the court.
They will support their teammate — the day James does not support a friend is the day the Browns win the Super Bowl — but they also realize that when it comes to games they have to find ways to win, and it might have to be without West.
That mental change might be subconscious, but it seems they have accepted the reality that West might not be with them much this season. The Cavs looked more comfortable as a group in the two Florida games.
This also could be the result of a veteran team understanding itself, and understanding that these two games against the Magic and Heat were a little bit bigger than your garden-variety games.
Against the Magic, especially, the Cavs used O'Neal in the offense in ways that seemed much more seamless than in the past.
There was ball movement, player movement and passing.
And there was one play when O'Neal had the ball just outside the lane and hit a cutting James with a behind-the-back pass for a layup.
At that point in time the complaints that O'Neal would clog the middle for James seemed a little out of place.
The conclusion from the two games? The Cavs, as they and their forthright coach state, have some growing to do.
But they also appear on the right track toward their destination, which barring injury or other catastrophe, would be another run at an NBA championship come April and May.
Random thoughts|
• Let's ping-pong back to the Browns . . . where Brady Quinn ping-pongs back to the lineup. Against the team he played the third game of the season, when he was benched after halftime.
Welcome back, Mr. Quinn. You get the Baltimore Ravens defense in two of your four starts.
• It is amazing to think that Quinn was not good enough to start the fourth game against the Buffalo Bills, but is good enough to start Monday night against one of the best defenses in the league.
• Could this be any more challenging for Quinn? The Ravens are coming off a disappointing loss to the Cincinnati Bengals, and have the Indianapolis Colts and Pittsburgh Steelers after the Browns. The Ravens must win this game if they have any hope of repeating in the playoffs.
• Too, losing to the Browns has become the mantra for embarrassment in the league. As in, we can't lose to . . . the Browns.
• The Browns' search for a new person to run the football operation continues. It might be over quickly, but it also might take some time. Many available candidates — like Mike Holmgren — might prefer to see what other opportunities await.
• Word is, though, that this hire will be studied, discussed and assessed by more people than January's was. Then, Lerner handled things pretty much on his own. He wants a different approach now that takes into consideration more opinions and more insights. Lerner already is discussing the hire (hires?) and the job with a group of advisers.
• If I'm Lerner, I wonder if I might be so let down by what's happening with the team that I'd look at Mangini and think: ''OK pal, I gave you everything you wanted and I trusted you and this mess is what you've given me back; you finish the season, because you deserve to live with what you've created.''
• Vindictiveness does not win many games though.
• Ping-ponging to the Cavs . . . James said this week that he's done talking about free agency.
• One can hardly blame him. James is among the most accessible and cooperative superstars in any league, and every city he visits he's asked about the summer of 2010. That would get old fast.
• But his announcement was curious in that it came only after he visited New York, when he (again) talked about it.
• Better late than never, one supposes, but perhaps it might have been better to make that announcement before the season.
• It's also hard to ignore the topic when Dwyane Wade more or less concedes that he, James and Chris Bosh have discussed being on the same team, and that they all will sit down over dinner this summer and discuss where they want to be.
• Never before have a league's stars been able to collude to determine the fate of several franchises.
• I shudder to think what the day will be like if James announces he's leaving.
• They'd have to move the Nike sign from downtown!
• This is why it's best to not even think about such things, until they actually . . . happen.
• Word is The Who will be the Super Bowl halftime show. With two band members having passed on.
• Next year: The Beatles.
• Or maybe Elvis.
• Imagine being Keith Grennan, a practice squad defensive end who signed with the Browns on Oct. 20. You practice and work and do all the nasty stuff that practice squad guys do, then you get dragged out for extra individual work and you blow your knee out.
• Now Grennan's career is in serious doubt.
• Different people say different things about these ''opportunity sessions.'' Talk to one coach and he'll say it's too much to ask and wrong. Talk to an agent and he'll say he would want his practice squad guy out there learning whenever he can.
• It just seems that when it happens twice it's one time too many.
• Players can get hurt walking up and down steps, but when they get hurt after practice is over in a ''voluntary'' session, it's too much. Players will never stop trying. It's their nature. It's the coach and the team that has to recognize when enough is enough. One season-ending injury seems like enough of a red flag to reassess. Two is two too many.
• Imagine being the owner of a team that lost two guys — after the practice had ended.
• How do these things happen?
• Until next time . . . There you have it.
Coach Eric Mangini's year seems hell-bent on misery. Just this week Browns veteran running back Jamal Lewis blasted Mangini for his overly long practices (the next day Lewis said the media made too much of his statements . . . OK . . . sure) and then came word that a second player was injured in the post-practice ''opportunity session.''
Mangini spent his entire Friday media session and not one question was asked about the Baltimore Ravens or football.
This is the state of your Browns.
The games no longer seem to matter.
Maybe it's because the games are so dismally bad.
Alas . . . we digress.
Two injuries in these ''opportunity sessions'' has to be either the worst luck in the history of professional football, or the worst planning and execution of practices, or the worst making of your own luck. Ever.
When one player is hurt in after-practice practice (James Davis) it's one thing, but when a second ruptures a patella tendon in another post-practice session, it's either stupidity or stubbornness or off-the-charts misfortune.
Owner Randy Lerner will take a lot of shots for the team's state, and he accepts the criticism.
But his thinking when he made his hires was not borne of illogic.
One can disagree with the decisions and the process, but the needs and requirements in his mind were clear.
Lerner knew he had come off a situation where the quarterback had been punched in the weight room by a teammate, players had scuffled on the sidelines and others had not been held accountable for breaking rules.
Too, his general manager was undercutting the coach, which meant the two were not working together.
Lerner wanted more discipline.
He wanted to change the Browns' culture in terms of their work ethic and accountability and ability to work together.
And he wanted to win with the right players, meaning dependable, trustworthy players.
The first person he interviewed was Mangini, and Mangini impressed him.
It's hard to see that when you see the public Mangini, but Mangini in private can do that; he's a different person when he's in an individual setting.
Then Lerner wanted a GM who would get along with Mangini, who would work with him.
So he agreed to the guy Mangini suggested, George Kokinis, and he believed them when they said they would work together. Lerner trusted them.
It's the way he runs the Browns. He hires people he believes will succeed, then he gets out of their way and lets them do their jobs. He does not want to interfere. Some say he needs to be more involved. It's his style.
The GM choice did not work out. Mangini is blamed in some quarters, Kokinis in others.
At this point, Lerner would probably concede that he tried too hard to find a compatible pair coming off an incompatible one, which is why he's looking for a stronger individual to run football.
What has worked well?
Mangini has brought more discipline to the Browns.
He has cut penalties and held players accountable for wrongdoing — the infamous $1,701 water bottle fine was to a player who had 50-some similar infractions. He also got rid of guys whose egos he thought were too big for the team — like Kellen Winslow and Braylon Edwards.
But his Browns have been flat lousy on the field — remember that part of the equation, the actual games? — and he's also brought many problems.
As one NFL insider put it: ''Right plan, wrong guy.''
As in, Mangini wants to do the right things, to bring in the right kind of players, but he's not the person to achieve the plan because he brings too much negativity and physical and mental stress with his control-oriented approach.
Does Lerner bear responsibility for what has happened?
Absolutely. He would not disagree.
Did he have logic for his decisions?
Yes.
Did the decisions work?
Look at the situation and the results.
What's he doing about it?
He's trying to get this next decision (decisions) right. Cue laugh track here if you like. But it's the Lerner family's team, and demanding they're going to sell isn't going to make someone else swoop in and take over.
Mistakes happen. Springsteen misses a chord, but he doesn't sell the guitar. Same with Lerner. Things didn't work out, and he's trying to address the situation by bringing in someone experienced and credible who can run the football operations.
When that happens and who it is, we will see.
Too, Lerner will hold Mangini accountable. A new GM/football guy might hold him even more accountable.
But that's likely to be after the season.
Unless the ridiculous turmoil of the past week continues and forces a reassessment.
Other side of town|
The complete flip side of the Browns?
The Cavaliers, who had an especially good week.
Winning back-to-back in Florida over the Orlando Magic and Miami Heat was important, but the way the Cavs won was more important.
They won by, it seems, finding themselves.
''I'm happy,'' coach Mike Brown said after beating the Magic. ''The trust we've shown on both sides of the ball. That's the biggest thing for me.''
Trust is a big term to Brown — and to him it means relying on teammates, believing in teammates, believing in the team.
That attitude propelled the Cavs to 66 wins a year ago, and Brown has never wavered that this year's team could share the same trust even with two superstars in LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal.
He also said that early in the season there would be some bumps, and he wasn't wavering from that reality even after the win against the Magic.
''We're kind of trying to figure out who we are,'' Brown said. ''But we can go through that process and do a few things. We can go through that process and trust one another.''
This is why Brown is so appealing.
He's honest enough to concede that he, like his team, is in a bit of a murky place in terms of finding itself and how it wants to play. But he also concedes, honestly, that there's enough talent to win even with some murkiness.
The Cavs ''struggled'' early, and some of it seemed to have something to do with the uncertainty surrounding Delonte West.
But as time has gone on and West has been unable to avoid personal issues that affect the team, it almost seems as if the team has moved on, too. At least when it comes to play on the court.
They will support their teammate — the day James does not support a friend is the day the Browns win the Super Bowl — but they also realize that when it comes to games they have to find ways to win, and it might have to be without West.
That mental change might be subconscious, but it seems they have accepted the reality that West might not be with them much this season. The Cavs looked more comfortable as a group in the two Florida games.
This also could be the result of a veteran team understanding itself, and understanding that these two games against the Magic and Heat were a little bit bigger than your garden-variety games.
Against the Magic, especially, the Cavs used O'Neal in the offense in ways that seemed much more seamless than in the past.
There was ball movement, player movement and passing.
And there was one play when O'Neal had the ball just outside the lane and hit a cutting James with a behind-the-back pass for a layup.
At that point in time the complaints that O'Neal would clog the middle for James seemed a little out of place.
The conclusion from the two games? The Cavs, as they and their forthright coach state, have some growing to do.
But they also appear on the right track toward their destination, which barring injury or other catastrophe, would be another run at an NBA championship come April and May.
Random thoughts|
• Let's ping-pong back to the Browns . . . where Brady Quinn ping-pongs back to the lineup. Against the team he played the third game of the season, when he was benched after halftime.
Welcome back, Mr. Quinn. You get the Baltimore Ravens defense in two of your four starts.
• It is amazing to think that Quinn was not good enough to start the fourth game against the Buffalo Bills, but is good enough to start Monday night against one of the best defenses in the league.
• Could this be any more challenging for Quinn? The Ravens are coming off a disappointing loss to the Cincinnati Bengals, and have the Indianapolis Colts and Pittsburgh Steelers after the Browns. The Ravens must win this game if they have any hope of repeating in the playoffs.
• Too, losing to the Browns has become the mantra for embarrassment in the league. As in, we can't lose to . . . the Browns.
• The Browns' search for a new person to run the football operation continues. It might be over quickly, but it also might take some time. Many available candidates — like Mike Holmgren — might prefer to see what other opportunities await.
• Word is, though, that this hire will be studied, discussed and assessed by more people than January's was. Then, Lerner handled things pretty much on his own. He wants a different approach now that takes into consideration more opinions and more insights. Lerner already is discussing the hire (hires?) and the job with a group of advisers.
• If I'm Lerner, I wonder if I might be so let down by what's happening with the team that I'd look at Mangini and think: ''OK pal, I gave you everything you wanted and I trusted you and this mess is what you've given me back; you finish the season, because you deserve to live with what you've created.''
• Vindictiveness does not win many games though.
• Ping-ponging to the Cavs . . . James said this week that he's done talking about free agency.
• One can hardly blame him. James is among the most accessible and cooperative superstars in any league, and every city he visits he's asked about the summer of 2010. That would get old fast.
• But his announcement was curious in that it came only after he visited New York, when he (again) talked about it.
• Better late than never, one supposes, but perhaps it might have been better to make that announcement before the season.
• It's also hard to ignore the topic when Dwyane Wade more or less concedes that he, James and Chris Bosh have discussed being on the same team, and that they all will sit down over dinner this summer and discuss where they want to be.
• Never before have a league's stars been able to collude to determine the fate of several franchises.
• I shudder to think what the day will be like if James announces he's leaving.
• They'd have to move the Nike sign from downtown!
• This is why it's best to not even think about such things, until they actually . . . happen.
• Word is The Who will be the Super Bowl halftime show. With two band members having passed on.
• Next year: The Beatles.
• Or maybe Elvis.
• Imagine being Keith Grennan, a practice squad defensive end who signed with the Browns on Oct. 20. You practice and work and do all the nasty stuff that practice squad guys do, then you get dragged out for extra individual work and you blow your knee out.
• Now Grennan's career is in serious doubt.
• Different people say different things about these ''opportunity sessions.'' Talk to one coach and he'll say it's too much to ask and wrong. Talk to an agent and he'll say he would want his practice squad guy out there learning whenever he can.
• It just seems that when it happens twice it's one time too many.
• Players can get hurt walking up and down steps, but when they get hurt after practice is over in a ''voluntary'' session, it's too much. Players will never stop trying. It's their nature. It's the coach and the team that has to recognize when enough is enough. One season-ending injury seems like enough of a red flag to reassess. Two is two too many.
• Imagine being the owner of a team that lost two guys — after the practice had ended.
• How do these things happen?
• Until next time . . . There you have it.
Comments
Click here to post your comments
Paradise, Oh
Posted 10:09 AM, 11/15/2009
"How do these things happen?"
A lot of weird things happen at a clown show.
How do they get all those clowns into that tiny, little car?
Charlotte, NC
Posted 10:24 AM, 11/15/2009
The Nike sign won't be the only thing leaving should James bolt. In 2012. the Cavs will also be gone. To Las Vegas. Las Vegas Cavaliers.
Centennial, CO
Posted 10:52 AM, 11/15/2009
Pat,
You can argue that Lerner's decision was "not llogical" but I counter that it was irresponsible. I am one of the owners of a medium-sized business and cannot imagine making our company's most important hire without interviewing multiple candidates. Warning signs like Rich McKay taking himself out of consideration if Mangini is involved should have been a signal to Lerner to thoroughly check his candidate out. We're not talking respected coaches like Cohwer or Shanahan - guys who have won Super Bowls. This was a guy with a lousy reputation in the league, a coach who had never taken his team to the playoffs, and a guy who just got fired!. Why Lerner was in such a rush to hire someone is beyond me. If he thought that other teams were going to race to pursue Mangini, then he is sorely out of touch. Bottom line is that this was a terrible business decision by a guy who should know better. I, for one, do not trust Lerner to make a good decision hiring the next coach. If he had done his homework, this disaster may not have happened.
Stow, OH
Posted 11:12 AM, 11/15/2009
The Who will be just fine. Pete Townshend and Roger Daltry remain from the original. Bands, just like sports teams, must occasionally replace a player. In both cases, it is possible to do while keeping the quality of play on a high level.
The, US
Posted 12:24 PM, 11/15/2009
This onslaught of anti-Mangini reporting is getting really old. Of course he's going to get a lot of heat, but none of this is new news. Get on with life, find a new angle. Report something we HAVE NOT heard.
Comparing Mangini to Coach Brown is laughable. Put two top tier hall of fame players on Mangini's roster (like what Brown has) and they'll have a much better record than the Cavs have.
While we're on that topic, let's stop calling the Cav's owner a genius. He bought a team that had LeBron on it. Let's see if he can keep him before we build a statue in front of that shiny new casino.
cleveland, oh
Posted 12:27 PM, 11/15/2009
again this dammm coah is on every nfl pre-game show and its not about the up comming game. the nflpa will be at the browns wednesday practice to meet ith players away from the facilty. we are a national joke mr. lerner u need to fire this bummm im ready are you . lerner
cleveland, oh
Posted 12:29 PM, 11/15/2009
opppsss spell check i was drinking coffeeeee
Wilmington, NC
Posted 01:11 PM, 11/15/2009
Le-"Leave" is truly gone. I just feel in my heart that he is doing all in his power to win one for "his town" before bolting that way he can say, "well I love all of those that have supported me and I grew up with here but we did it but it is time to move on as even those where I grew up moved out of state for better opportunities." Of course his logic will carry absolutely no weight even though those that "advise' him will have several sound arguments to support his stance. He will conclude not having any big men, i.e. Shaq & Z any longer and will say that "N.Y." are an up and coming team with myself and Bosh along with a great supporting cast to contend for may years to come...well why not Bosh here Bron? Not to mention the very same very good/better surrounding cast..Look it is the bright lights, the allure of Madison Square Gardens not to mention the incredible media attention from sports writers nationally to Dave Letterman weekly appearances. Cleveland...Nope! Sorry all, enjoy this final year-and guess what, we'll get to the finals but lose in 7...after all we are Cleveland even when we 'have/had" our him, the best B-ball player in the world doing all to win us one..2011-he gets his 1st ring as a Knick! Watch..
Cuyahoga Falls, OH
Posted 04:46 PM, 11/15/2009
Would anyone be truly SHOCKED if LeBron James NEVER wins a ring? I wouldn't, especially if he leaves Cleveland. Some players go their entire career and never win a championship. Never. But I think we all know, it's not truly "about winning" for LeBron. It's about fame and money. Why were we expecting anything more? We live in a world where it's all about "ME." And, well, LBJ is the "king"...
Posted 05:15 PM, 11/15/2009
With the Cavs owner and management team,even if LeBron leaves,they will be good. As good as if he had staid---probably not. They are ran correctly from top to bottom. They have a management plan and money,as opposed to The Tribe--management plan --no money and Browns--money and no plan. I sure hope that LBJ stays,but as a fan I'm going to enjoy watching him perform in my team's jersey and not fret about something that only he has control of.
akron, oh
Posted 05:37 PM, 11/15/2009
You people must not understand basketball, if you think LeBron is leaving.
Marginal, NY
Posted 06:22 PM, 11/15/2009
Wow, nice throwaway line about the $1701 fine being for someone with chronic infractions. Nothing about, Gee folks, we've been misrepresenting something for a while and we'd like to clear that up. Hmm.
Akron, OH
Posted 10:40 PM, 11/15/2009
Lynn,
That's SOP with the AMM (Anti-Mangini Media). I don't think I've ever seen a retraction by the writers who kept writing that James Davis was injured by a padded LB (while not wearing pads). They reported it and reported as such and when the NFL concluded that wasn't the case...... silence.
I always thought accountability was a tenet of journalism. Well, along with format, media has become "New Media" in other, less honorable ways as well.
akron, OH
Posted 06:26 AM, 11/16/2009
Hey...I have an Idea!....Let's enjoy tonite's game....Root for Brady that he dosen't get killed....and hope that it's over by 10pm so we can get up refreshed, drink some coffee....read about how mangoonie will be fired,and who the next GM will be....and LB is not going to NY....Why on earth would he want to go to another rebuilding team.....Bad football is better than NO football....I think?....C'mon...this is what a fan is all about unless you are Robert Dinero { THE FAN }
Naples, FL
Posted 06:37 AM, 11/16/2009
Pat, let's not make the Ravens out to be the dominating defense of the past. The team is 3-4 against all teams not named the Browns. If Quinn can't cut it against a team in the Browns own division then he isn't the guy to start at all. Quit making excuses for him before the game even starts.
Akron, , OH
Posted 07:28 AM, 11/16/2009
These are the effects of leadership!!!
Bethesda, MD
Posted 07:44 AM, 11/16/2009
Kokonis failed, and should have been fired, because he didn't take charge in spite of Mangini as he should have. That he took the job under strange circumstances was his decision.
akron, oh
Posted 08:50 AM, 11/16/2009
Lerner should have never hired Mangini in the first place. Mangini does not know what he is doing and it shows.
Akron, OH
Posted 09:32 AM, 11/16/2009
MaryAnn,
Look at the Jets roster. Remade with several Pro Bowlers under Mangini.
Anti-Politically Correct & Anti-GOP, OH
Posted 12:24 PM, 11/16/2009
I can't wait for the Lions game and Detroit will get win #2.
Stow, Oh
Posted 01:52 PM, 11/16/2009
Ditto that MaryAnn !!!
